Best track rim profile

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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LouisN
Posts: 2453
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

Ok, thanks for the precision.
I experienced about the same thing as you here, most of it at the (all new and covered) national velodrome.
**I must add the closest velodrome (outside) is a 5 hours drive from my place, the national velodrome more than 15 hours.
So as much as I would like to practice track more, we are reduced to a few events in the year. Probably a camp is on next year's agenda.
Lots of high end material users there. For wheels, obviously, Mavic and Campagnolo wheels are everywhere.
And Look frames also, since they've been sponsors of the national team for a long time, lots of them end up in local racers's hands.
(FYI we are starting with some used alloy Felt bikes I got for a few hundred dollars.)

Interestingly, a local wheel company, Blade Carbon wheels, is sponsoring the national team ( road ;) ). They sell online lots of track wheels. I heard from a national team coach that quality was not very good. And they cost as much as the FFWD wheels so....
https://bladecarbonwheels.com/product-c ... ck-wheels/
Among the few ( around 65-70) wheel sets I built in the past, I must say the two FFWD rim sets ( one F6R and one F4R) were very nice ! Supposedly made by Gigantex. But they're not cheap !!
I also built lots of weels with Flybike sports rims. I must agree the finish is not as perfect as the high end rims, but they are not that fragile. 4 years and more than 15K km's on them. Last fall, my daughter experienced a downhill crash with another rider equipped with Enve Smart 3.4 wheels. They both cracked their helmets from the crash ( she was fine, a little headache and neck sore for a few days after, but that's it). My wheels (40 mm tubular) were fine as the Enve front was destroyed (clincher). Maybe luck, but I was happy the wheels held the crash fine.
I saw a used Easton TKO wheelset ( 20/28H) for cheap, but don't know if they're good quality.... Takes the fun and pride of having a personal wheelset out though :) .

One thing I wish I would understand, is why build a track wheelset with more tiny spokes ( like most of the brands do, like 24 or 28 CX-Ray spokes), but definitely not 20 or 24 straight gauge 2mm spokes.
I would like to see the real wheel rigidity difference in those different setups...
Elliptical spokes, even if smaller than bigger round spokes, is supposed to have more elongation resistance, therefore the upper part of the wheel would resist better to the centrifugal force in track bankings ... ?
(?? Sapim call it "strenght on middle section": their smaller butted spokes have more strenght than their straight gauge :? :noidea: Besides the Super spoke, aren't the higher end Laser, CX and CX-Ray made of the same steel ? Why does the smaller, round, Laser spoke have more "strenght" than the CX ?? )

Louis :)

by Weenie


gramsqueen
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:15 am

by gramsqueen

Are you trying to build 2 whole bikes with the cost of a 5 spoke front and rear disc?

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LouisN
Posts: 2453
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

You can put it this way.
Or, even worse.
Trying to get my children into practicing this sport they call cycling, and reduce disadvantages caused by limited budget... :wink:

Louis :)

istigatrice
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 8:32 am
Location: Australia

by istigatrice

I think using more, thinner spokes distributes the load better. In an ideal world you would have 36 thick spokes - which is exactly what the sprinters here use (sometimes even for B priority races - e.g. everything but national championships).

my take on 20 thick spokes is that it would be too few because you'd need a super stiff rim to support the rims between the spokes - and then you run into the issue of your rims being stiffer than your spokes (and arriving at a feeling of vagueness). The rigidity is being provided slightly differently (which apparently) makes all the difference. Mavic Ellipses seem to walk a very fine line on this (in that they seem fine for enduros but not for sprinters).

Don't worry about the limited budget, there is minimal disadvantage in equipment. Just make sure the bikes "fit" the riders (which means something different to road, usually size up a few sizes - e.g. our state academy puts 1.6m juniors on 56TT track bikes). Races (even time trials) can be decided purely on the line you ride and your pacing. Your girls will have so many more gains by learning how to ride a given track than any "fair" track bike will provide.

Time and time again I've seen riders with "cheap" bikes medal at national championships - track is so much more about the rider (in fact road is too tbh) it's the bike industry that's driving this "desire" for carbon etc. I've seen state championships won on Hillbrick Pista bikes ($600 complete bike), as well as top 10s at nationals on similar machines (ok they had race wheels on then). This is getting a little OT, but what I'm trying to stress is to not worry about the aerodynamics, instead to worry about building a solid bike/wheel, because control and confidence matter so much more.
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

1llum4
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:00 am

by 1llum4

Hello Louis, from what i understand we race at the same velodromes (Bromont and Milton). I personally race with the following wheel setup:
Chinese 88mm Depth/23mm external width tubular rims
DT Swiss 370 track hubset 20h/24h
Sapim CX-Ray spokes radial front/2x cross rear

Sometimes I can feel the 88mm during a windy day at bromont but not enough to make my riding dangerous to others. I am no sprinter (can barely do a sub 13s flying 200m) but I have never felt the wheels to be flexing during accelerations in the turns at 55-60kph (still can feel the bromont bumps though :P). Others racers at Bromont that don't have big ambitions (making the national team eg) have also settled on wheels like Zipp 404, FFWD F6T, Easton TKO or chinese 60-80mm wheels except some master riders with too much budget :P

If your girls are fast enough, you might not need race wheels as they will race for equipe du quebec and the FQSC will loan them mavic disc wheels during time trials events. For Qc championship they would be on their own equipment wise but at their age, the racing field is not tight enough that wheels would be enough to make a difference between podium or not. They just have to hope that Simone Boilard dosen't come to the Qc track champs :P

Here are the options for handbuilt track wheelset that make the most sense to me

Custom strong training wheelset
Shimano Dura-Ace 36h or 32h fix/fix hubs
Tubular rims like old ambrosio
DT Swiss champions spoke 3x cross front/rear
This is the setup that you will see Qc sprinters trains and even race match sprints/keirin and will only take out the mavic disc/5 spoke setup for the flying 200m (most of them don't do the kilo)

Custom semi-aero training wheelset
DT Swiss 370 Track hubs 20h/24h fix/fix hubset
DT Swiss RR511 clincher rim
DT Swiss Aerolite or Sapim CX-Ray spokes radial for front wheel 2x cross for rear wheel
This is pretty much a handbuilt version of the mavic ellipse. Reliable to train on them, semi-aero so less a disadvantage during race than the standard training wheels. You will see many other cyclists fare well in races with wheels similar to those at the provincial levels

Custom everyday race wheelset
60mm depth/23mm external width carbon rims from the chinese source you trust the most
DT Swiss 370 Track hubs 20h/24h fix/fix hubset
or
Shimano Dura-Ace 28h fix/fix hubset
Aerolite or Cx-Ray spoke radial front/2x cross rear
This is a wheelset that should cost you around 1400$ to build, can do very well in most conditions and will only be a slight disadvantage compared to the disc/5spoke setup.

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LouisN
Posts: 2453
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

1llum4 wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:34 am
Hello Louis, from what i understand we race at the same velodromes (Bromont and Milton). I personally race with the following wheel setup:
Chinese 88mm Depth/23mm external width tubular rims
DT Swiss 370 track hubset 20h/24h
Sapim CX-Ray spokes radial front/2x cross rear

Sometimes I can feel the 88mm during a windy day at bromont but not enough to make my riding dangerous to others. I am no sprinter (can barely do a sub 13s flying 200m) but I have never felt the wheels to be flexing during accelerations in the turns at 55-60kph (still can feel the bromont bumps though :P). Others racers at Bromont that don't have big ambitions (making the national team eg) have also settled on wheels like Zipp 404, FFWD F6T, Easton TKO or chinese 60-80mm wheels except some master riders with too much budget :P

If your girls are fast enough, you might not need race wheels as they will race for equipe du quebec and the FQSC will loan them mavic disc wheels during time trials events. For Qc championship they would be on their own equipment wise but at their age, the racing field is not tight enough that wheels would be enough to make a difference between podium or not. They just have to hope that Simone Boilard dosen't come to the Qc track champs :P
Thanks for the feedback :) .
Although she's not in their age group (unless they race as "outclassed"), Simone is definitely an exceptional athlete, showing them what to "aim for" at the higher junior level.

ergott wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:10 pm
You can get something like a lightbicycle carbon rim in a higher spoke count, say 24/24 for them. That's probably a good balance between stiffness and aerosynamics on the track.

If you're patient, look for someone selling older, narrow carbon wheels/rims and grab to rears for the higher spoke counts. They have almost no resale value anymore and its true that the narrower rims will be more aero at 0 yaw on track. Look for Enve or Edge Composites 65mm rims, Reynolds SDV66 or similar. The rear wheels were typically 24 spoke or 20 spoke.
Yes I'm looking for these options now, probably closing a deal soon... :)

Louis :)

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