Why are deep section wheel less responsive even if lighter ?

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
AllAboutFeel
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by AllAboutFeel

I am recreational rider. For me it is all about having fun while I am out there riding.
I have just went from a Fulcrum Racing3/Campy Zonda to a Campagnolo Bora One 50 tubular wheelset. The Bora One are nearly 300 grams lighter and known to be very stiff as well. I was expecting a big upgrade. However it has been a bit dissapointing. The Bora One 50 in fact is less reactive/responsive than the "lowly" (by price) Zonda. With the Zonda I could feel a direct connection of how the power from the pedals converts into rotation of wheels. It was a very instant reponse from the wheel. With the Bora One 50 there is just a bit of lag. It is not an instant response to power. It is not bad but that fun of accelerating out of a fast corner is somewhat muted now. Bora 50 accelerates a bit slower.

My question is, why should that be ? Is it something like, being more aero = less responsive ?

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Which tires do you have on your fulcrum? And which tubulars do you have on your Bora?

by Weenie


AllAboutFeel
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by AllAboutFeel

On the Fulcrum Racing3 I have the Continental GP-4000sII 25mm and on the Bora One 50 it is Michelin Pro4 tubular 23mm

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TonyM
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by TonyM

My Bora One are definitely not less responsive/ reactive than my Fulcrum Racing Zero (same clincher tires and same pressure however). But much faster.

Maybe you could change to some more premium tubulars from Veloflex or Vittoria for example. And not to forget to adapt the pressure.

Alexandrumarian
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Location: Romania

by Alexandrumarian

I find that my classical shape rims with 25mm Michelin Power (spreading to 27) are more reactive and more precise in terms of steering and leaning than my Bora 35 with 27mm Veloflex tubs. The Boras are faster and way more comfortable but in terms of steering they are a bit slow or should I say "kind of want to do their thing". I admit they were better in this regard with 25 tubs. From other reports I've read, even deeper rims should feel even weirder. On the other hand, how they feel steering is something you get used to while actual speed and acceleration can be tested. After I got the boras I smashed all my descending PRs (although a lot of it could have been psyhological/upgrade euphoria courage)

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

Are the bora's new? Maybe the spoke tension is off.

Maybe you have a crack somewhere. Is everything all right? Crank/hub/pedals?

Forgive me for the scare, just trying to think of all possible reasons.

Are you a heavy guy accelerating with a lot of power? You say recreational but I found that in some countries recreational can be quite strong. :D

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

this thread is full of suvjective vaugeness. The OP handle allabout feel says it all - I am going to pass a judgement here the OP is conflating many things and puting it down to the wheels.

AllAboutFeel
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:04 am

by AllAboutFeel

I am only 69kgs. I will get the spoke tension checked and come back here.
BTW, I do feel the Bora One 50 tub with the 23mm Michelin tires quite bit harsher than my Zonda/Continental 4000s2 combination. Could that also be spoke tension thing ?

Marin
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by Marin

My bet is tires. Put Turbo Cottons or Veloflexes on.

GP 4000s are very fast, light, grippy and durable but they have a dead feel.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

exactly marin. it not the spoke tension either. think logically rather grasp at the things it wont be.

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

Just thinking if the wheels are 2nd hand and had been previously trued by an amateur.

Improbable, I agree, but not impossible.

Xywei
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by Xywei

You need high engagement hubs

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swright
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by swright

Campagnolo rates all their (rim brake) Bora 50s and 35s (both Ultra and One) at 9.5/10 for handling. They give the Bora 50 Ultra a 10/10 for reactivity, the Bora One 50 a 9.5/10 and the Bora One 35 a 9/10.

Campagnolo rates the (rim brake) Zonda at 9/10 for handling and 8/10 for reactivity.

So from Campys perspective, the Zondas are unquestionably (and unsurprisingly) inferior to the Boras (any width/flavor). The bearings in the Bora hubs are also a higher grade than those in the Zonda. Possibly their ratings are somewhat subjective, but given their use of a numerical score, I should think they must have at least some quantitative measurements behind their assessments.

I concur with the other posters that you are likely feeling the tyres more than the wheelset -- it would be great to hear your assessment were the same tyres (including widths) run on both wheelsets (allowing for the Bora's being tubular and the Zonda's using clinchers).

What is the motivation behind running 23mm tubulars on the Boras? They can handle 25mm and that should improve the handling and reactivity...

cheers,
Scott
2003 Klein Q Carbon Race (aluminum with carbon fiber seatstays) in purple haze, Campagnolo Record 11s groupset, Bora 50 Ultra (rim-brake clincher) wheelset, full Deda Elementi finishing kit, Fabric ALM Ultimate saddle [7.2kg/15.9lbs]

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Calnago
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by Calnago

swright wrote:...
Possibly their ratings are somewhat subjective, but given their use of a numerical score, I should think they must have at least some quantitative measurements behind their assessments.
Scott
I think that may be wishful thinking. I would consider those numbers a subjective assessment for marketing purposes.
That said, Boras are still my favorite wheel at any price. The 50’s will get pushed around in wind a little bit more than the 35’s, but nothing of much concern when compared to some other wheels I can think of. As for tire widths, I like 25mm tubulars on the newer Boras and 24mm on the older Boras. 23mm are a bit narrow for the newer 24.2mm rims. Your brake tracks will be the widest point and very susceptible to damage from curbs etc.
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by Weenie


refthimos
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by refthimos

This article should be required reading for every rider who claims one piece of equipment is slower based on feel rather than measured, quantifiable data:

https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/11517862 ... lete-story
EVO | 5.37kg
SystemSix | 8.01kg
TCR Advanced SL Disc | 7.35kg
P5 | 9070 Di2 | SISL2 SRM | Enve 7.8 | Alto Disc
T1 | P2Max Type S | Rolf Prima FX58/Zipp Super 9 Disc

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