Road tubeless ... components not working together

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

[/quote wrote: As for the second point, CO2 is only bad because the pressurized gas is very cold. This should not be a huge issue if you inflate the tire with the valve at 12 o'clock.
Yes.. seemed to help. The orange stuff IMO is only good for sealing beads though.

Tube-ass as I call the game.. I'm very happy w my Pro Ones. Mine are set up on Kinlin 200 380 some gram rims .. 3 wraps of the November brand tape... hold air very well.. are very fast. Tight fit.. no burping.

Marketing angles cite their shorter wear longevity .. but I'll pass on their ++300 gram 25c tires w their prohibitive cost. Not gonna spend a hundred and a half + for bike tires... :noidea:

Going w Pro Ones did exactly as I thought.. got the educate on non tube tires. Yes mounting takes technique .. Ones require the tire lever. Makes the chore doable for most.

I remember well back when a poster stated why tubeless.... fixes essentially what issue? Agreed. None.. yet roadside repair can be very simple via no tubes.
The worms.. some Super glue.

Tubeless will only fly.. when the manufacturers stop playing word games. 'Tube-ass compatible' is male cow dung.. means essentially caveats that compromise safety and require diligent user care. If a flippin' tire is NOT tubeless at any psi that is ridiculous nonsense. I'm learning now one company goes to the '55 psi' level for NOT blowing off w narrower rims... yet nowhere on the company site to they say such. BUYER BEWARE..........

Nope.. I never blew one off. Take careful attention to test vs that event.. but many do not. In the end.. they've an army of lawyers. Yours won't go after them... one vs the office full.

A real bonafide long lasting sealant that does SEAL roadside... that is what the road tire is waiting for. Finish Line is a step in the right direction.. needs some work. Anyone find one that works sans the drying?

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

My Schwalbe pro one with orange seal.. deflation was very very slow .. I was shocked actually .. I’d lose maybe 2-3 psi a week. Latex is pump every day

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

2-3psi a week is irregular. That’s better than lightweight butyl tubes.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

MikeD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:14 pm
Most of us think Orange Seal is the best sealant. I've had good luck with it as well. Not sure why your experience is contrary to that.
I hear that a lot. My experience was back when it first came out and I was running 23's at higher pressure (about 100psi). It's possible that had something to do with it, but I ended up with a pool of it under my tire trying to get it to seal, which is generally the kiss of death if I'm testing out a sealant..

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:25 pm
Agree about Orange Seal. Stan's Race might be better at sealing, but it's thick enough that Stan's recommends not injecting it through the valve, and it dries in half the time. Also there's still the issue of Stan's creating boogers inside the tire.

As for the second point, CO2 is only bad because the pressurized gas is very cold. This should not be a huge issue if you inflate the tire with the valve at 12 o'clock. On the other hand unless you are in a competition, I don't really see much point in carrying CO2. I puncture infrequently enough that I just use the smallest/lightest mini-pump I could find: a Topeak Micro Rocket. It's a truly shitty mini-pump, but that doesn't matter when I might use it a couple times in a year.
I've been using Stan's race since it came out, never had an issue injecting it through the valve. As for it drying out, again, hasn't been a huge problem, but I'm on the low end of Clyde and I do 6-7,000mi/year, so I'm probably replacing tires quicker than the sealant can dry out in them.
2old4this wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:31 pm
Two questions, while we are at it...
- I still don't see how one can go down to 40-60 psi on these tires (mines are Hutchenson Sector 28), and the minimum pressure is 87 psi (printed on the tire.)
- I've put 40 ml Orange Seal on each tire. They are slowly deflating over 4-5 days. How much sealant do you guys put on each tire?
My undestanding has always been that the minimum pressure is for running with tubes. I could see not running a 28 below 87 with tubes as a heavier rider (like myself) may be risking pinch flats with harder bumps. Tubeless, I'm running 25c Pro Ones between 75 and 80psi, 87 on a pair of 28's sounds way high.

Regarding sealant, I generally use 2oz, which I believe is 60ml. I'd expet that over 4-5 days you'd probably lose maybe 10psi. I'd consider losing 2-3psi a day normal. If you're losing in excess of 15-20psi or going completely flat, my guess is they are "tubless ready" and you're losing air through the sidewall because they aren't fully sealed. I've had this problem on ligher weight CX tires. Air it up, take the wheel off, and shake it laterally as you turn it.
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CallumRD1
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by CallumRD1

I've been using Schwalbe Pro One tires (25c front, 28c rear, measured at ~29mm and ~30.5mm respectively) set up tubeless with Orange Seal Sub Zero on Light Bicycle 46mm rims (22.5mm internal width, hookless) for about a year now. I've probably had a dozen punctures over that time, and all but one sealed without me noticing. The one that I did notice was a ~5mm gash right in the middle of my front tire while descending at ~30 mph. It sprayed sealant everywhere but did manage to seal on its own after I stopped. Most of the punctures I only noticed when I found dried sealant on my bike when I was washing it days later.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

9The is an inverse sealant law. The better it is at sealing the shorter time its last. My thinking is sealants work by polymerising (latex) via ph changes that occur when air rushes over it. this is why using compressed air to inflate tyres with sealant tends to shorten sealant lifespan.

So stans race sealant (i have tried this and cant reliably inject it through a valve) is a perfect example of a sealant with seals well but life span is shorter.

Effetto have an additive for caffe latex that improves sealing but it will do it by shortening sealant life. Making a sealant polymerise more easily plugs holes quicker but that also means it is easier to start it off, i.e fluid loss due to natural evaporation resulting in a Ph change that leads to latex creatures on the inside of your tyre.

As for tyre rim combo's the Kinlin XR200 or 220 is not a tubeless rim. It lacks like some tubeless rims (DT Swiss R460, TK650 HED belgium+...) the bump next the to the well that stop the tyre unseating at zero pressure. So in the case of a proper flat you have to fit a tube. Tubeless tyres do suffer from bead stretch just not as much a tubed tyres but enough to result in sealing issue once a tubeless tyre is refitted (not always but it is a resonable risk). So to be truely tubeless and not have to carry one you need a tyre/rim combo that remains seated at zero pressure and that means you can inject the sealant after you have seated the tyre with compressed air then inflate using a hand pump if you need to.

Also if the rim can make use of normal rim strip to allow the fitting of tyres and tubes easily then it probably wont go tubeless that easily as the fit is not snug enough.

So use know combo's. Tubeless is not a wing it technology. If buying a tubeless tyre of a retailer they should be able to tell you rims they know it works well with. if they cant or you think they are a wing it sort of outfit go else where. One shop told me they set up conti GP4000sII tyres tubeless on various rims. That's a wing it shop and that only creates problems in the long run.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

It's much simpler than that. Sealants coagulate when forced through tiny apertures due to pressure. Small solids/chunkulators/glitter/whatever aid in the process by helping to plug larger apertures and also providing more surface area to adhere to. Again, the reason why it isn't advised to use CO2 to inflate tires is mostly temperature related and not much else. Cold temps encourage phase change. Phase change -> solid increases the likelihood of adhesion/coagulation. If you want to prevent huge boogers in Stan's sealant, use more of it so it never starts to dry out.

Heat/evaporation is the biggest single reason for sealant drying out. What sort of suspension is used affects the speed of evaporation.

dim
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by dim

I've used Orange Sealant and it works well.

Then I tried the new Slime STR Premium Selant (the green stuff). It did not seal the bead, and I added a bit of Orange sealant which then sorted it.

The Slime Sealant also clogged the valves and is so thick that it's dificult to get it out of the bottle with the tube that connects to the valve.

I will continue with Orange Sealant for now
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

dim wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:37 am
I've used Orange Sealant and it works well.

Then I tried the new Slime STR Premium Selant (the green stuff). It did not seal the bead, and I added a bit of Orange sealant which then sorted it.

The Slime Sealant also clogged the valves and is so thick that it's dificult to get it out of the bottle with the tube that connects to the valve.

I will continue with Orange Sealant for now
Lol yes. When I tried Slime STR, the bottle's own tip got clogged within about a second. Also the formulation is VERY sticky/gluey. When it dries, it's much harder to clean off a rim than Orange Seal. As we all know, Orange Seal kinda peels off in one big film like molted snake skin.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

effetto talk about there sealant polymerises. The additives can kick start that process. But regardless of the mechanism sealant that seem to last a long time do seems to seal less reliably.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:36 pm
If you want to prevent huge boogers in Stan's sealant, use more of it so it never starts to dry out.
This might be why I have such good luck with Stans, I use a full 2oz in road tires. I've never had a completely dried out tire. I'm firmly in the "I'd rather have the extra weight of an oz of sealant than not have enough to get me home" camp.
bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:13 pm
So stans race sealant (i have tried this and cant reliably inject it through a valve) is a perfect example of a sealant with seals well but life span is shorter.
Just out of curiosity, how are you injecting it? I've been using the Stan's injector with the rubber tube slipped over the valve stem and have never had an issue. I also make sure to back the plunger out and push it back in a few times to try to get every bit I can through the stem, but I've never had one get plugged by Stans, Race or otherwise.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

peted76
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by peted76

I've used a few types of sealant now (Continental Revo = awful, Stans the orginal stuff not the newer stuff = awful, the Schwalbe stuff (same as stans) = afwul, green slime = too thick useless and as it's been a while since I tried a new one, I recently brought a bottle of orange seal based on this forum. Not that I've had any issues with the bontrager sealant I've used for the past year or so (apart from the excessive shaking of the bottle required).
Overall I'm not that impressed with Orange seal, it's a bit 'thin' and failed to seal a mates tyre I set up for him the other day.. I'll use it up, but in my opinion it does not seal as well as the Bontrager stuff (which needs a hell of a lot of shaking before use).
My vote goes with the bontrager sealant, still it does dry out but lasts a good three or four months usually, I use 20 to 30ml (minimal) and it's been great.. did I mention that you do need to shake the bottle a lot before use ;)

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

bm0p700f wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:13 pm
As for tyre rim combo's the Kinlin XR200 or 220 is not a tubeless rim. It lacks like some tubeless rims (DT Swiss R460, TK650 HED belgium+...) the bump next the to the well that stop the tyre unseating at zero pressure. So in the case of a proper flat you have to fit a tube. Tubeless tyres do suffer from bead stretch just not as much a tubed tyres but enough to result in sealing issue once a tubeless tyre is refitted (not always but it is a reasonable risk). So to be truly tubeless and not have to carry one you need a tyre/rim combo that remains seated at zero pressure and that means you can inject the sealant after you have seated the tyre with compressed air then inflate using a hand pump if you need to.
Correct on the Kinlin 200's. 3 tape wraps of November tape and I have a setup
that inflates w a floor pump.. this on used Pro ones at 1500+ miles. I like the weight of the 200s .. they do lack the 'retaining well' design. Yet the tires being marketed as 'tubeless compatible' would not function even on designated tubeless compatible rims... see Panaracer Gravel Kings. In the PGK's case the sidewall flexibility IMO makes them useless even on UST rims under most inflation/road side circumstances. I can re-inflate roadside using CO2 on the 200s.

I read some manufacturers of tubeless state no tires levers needed or recommended on their tubeless. Yet I wonder how a sidewall of that flavor could function roadside even on UST rims..? Be interested to hear comments on those types of tires.

Geoff
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by Geoff

I think that there is no question that some tires do not work as well as others with certain wheels. Personally, I have had really good luck with:

1. Hutchinson tires with Shimano Dura-Ace wheels
2. Spercialized tires with Campagnolo Shamal wheels
3. Bontrager tires with Bontranger Aeolus wheels

The one I still hope to try is Mavic tires with the Mavic tubeless wheels.

I think that there is a fine line between making the tires on the large side to satisfy people who want easier mounting and making them on the smaller side to provide a better seal. If you use a 'matched set' (i.e., tire and wheel from the same manufacturer), you are more likely to get a better fit. My Aeolus wheels have sealed-up almost perfectly. I think I could have run them without sealant at all. I would not recomend that, however, as the whole point of running tubeless for road is to take advantage of its self-sealing capabiliites. I think that you need to try it.

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

Geoff wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:05 pm
I would not recommend that, however, as the whole point of running tubeless for road is to take advantage of its self-sealing capabilities. I think that you need to try it.
For me... very few flats. In my world adding weight via the drying of the latex makes no sense... and w the pumpkin sealant it dries whenever... meaning one should top regularly. Before I'll go that route I'll run tubes.

I'm set for roadside repair.. glue, inner tube slices w small screwdriver to insert. Have the 'worm' kit in the mail.

Did 68+ on the Schwalbe Pro Ones yesterday.. best tire buy I've made to date.

by Weenie


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