Road tubeless ... components not working together

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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WinterRider
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

Believe it was bm0p700f who touched on a rim made tubeless but in name only... I believe many of the components labeled tubeless are not in fact suitable for reliable use. bm0p700f noted the lack of a retaining well for the tire bead that holds the flat tire into the bead area for re-inflation on one model.

--Panaracer Gravel Kings ... are stated tubeless in one 700c offering to 60psi. IMO the GK is just another tubed tire.. why offered as a tubeless I'd like to know. Panaracer CS just respondes in circles failing to address my issue: roadside repair of flats. The sidewall is very pliable.. one can not mount the tire on many of the rims called tubeless. No where on the Panacer site does it state a UST standard tubeless rim is required. Now in correspondence I hear of a 55 psi reference to use... which is not the site.

Understand the GKings are fine tubed .. no issues. I have no issues blowing off tubeless.. have them set up tight w tape fit. Yet they'll even hesitate re-inflating w this custom setup. IMO.. laughable tubeless product. With a UST rim... I'd guess issues still...........

http://engineerstalk.mavic.com/en/road- ... safe-fast/ Good read.

Sealant drying out .. Finish Line has to date done well re-sealing beads fixed w Orange Sealant for me. I get few flats.. not relying on sealant for punctures. See no reason to carry the ounces of dry sealant.. rather run tubes then. If a Finish Line type non drying product proves out that CAN effectively seal punctures then we'd have something. Online reviews of FLine as a puncture sealant aren't encouraging. Edit: call to Finish Line w them saying fine to use over Orange if the Orange had dried.

Think developing a thread here to share info per components related to road tubeless of real value .. what works and what does not.

Retaining well of tubeless rims not made w one. Few would bother.. simply run a suitable tire. Yet a simple adaptation might work... ?

nemeseri
Posts: 687
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:40 pm

by nemeseri

I can't wait to read the success stories. Currently I don't believe in road tubeless and I'm pretty mad that manufacturers drive up the rim weight to support tubeless tires. I don't know *anyone* riding tubeless on the road, but probably I'm in a wrong circle of friends.

by Weenie


dim
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

nemeseri wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:57 pm
I can't wait to read the success stories. Currently I don't believe in road tubeless and I'm pretty mad that manufacturers drive up the rim weight to support tubeless tires. I don't know *anyone* riding tubeless on the road, but probably I'm in a wrong circle of friends.
have you actually used tubeless tyres?
Giant TCR
Canyon Endurace AL
Specialized Allez Sport

nemeseri
Posts: 687
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:40 pm

by nemeseri

No. Somehow I've only read negative comments regarding setup, sealants, flat protection etc. And those discourage me from trying. I'd love to hear first hand good experiences, success stories about sealed flats and clean and simple setups. Somebody might even point me to a no-BS faq page about tubeless. Also the benefits are a bit hazy to me, so I need some education in that area too.

My only experience with tubeless is that my previous tubeless ready rims were extremely thight and I disliked them because I had to wrestle to get my tires on them (yes, even with using the channel in the middle).

spdntrxi
Posts: 1638
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

nemeseri wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:30 pm


My only experience with tubeless is that my previous tubeless ready rims were extremely thight and I disliked them because I had to wrestle to get my tires on them (yes, even with using the channel in the middle).

nothing has changed.. some tires will be better then others in that regard , but the tires I like have not been the easist.

dim
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 am
Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

nemeseri wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:30 pm
No. Somehow I've only read negative comments regarding setup, sealants, flat protection etc. And those discourage me from trying. I'd love to hear first hand good experiences, success stories about sealed flats and clean and simple setups. Somebody might even point me to a no-BS faq page about tubeless. Also the benefits are a bit hazy to me, so I need some education in that area too.

My only experience with tubeless is that my previous tubeless ready rims were extremely thight and I disliked them because I had to wrestle to get my tires on them (yes, even with using the channel in the middle).
OK .... my limited experience:

I have HED Belgium plus rims and have used the IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless tyres ...

I had to use 2 layers of tape .... 3 punctures (that I know of) ....

First was during an Audax ride .... had a puncture and I had to stop.... spinned the wheel and it sealed ... 4 minutes later I was on the road again after I pumped it up (it lost a fair bit of air before sealing)

2nd one was on the sidewall so I binned the tyre (as I felt a bit nervous) , it did seal with Orange sealant, but I rode 80km before getting home and bought a replacement

3rd was a puncture that would not seal (with Orange Sealant), so I had to use a tyre worm .... took 5 minutes and I was on the road again .... I used this tyre for a few thousand km before replacing the tyres with Specialized Turbo Cotton clinchers

I will switch back to tubeless once the Turbo Cotton's need replacing and may try a different tubeless tyre (I always like to try new things), but I will definately use theIRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless tyres again (amazing fast tyres and grip like superglue)

Nice thing about tubeless rims is that you have the best of 2 worlds ... you can use tubeless or clinchers
Giant TCR
Canyon Endurace AL
Specialized Allez Sport

spdntrxi
Posts: 1638
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

1. Enve 7.8 (tubeless ready) running Turbo Cottons... not too bad to install so I got my hopes up.. using Silca tape (one layer) and latex tubes.
2. Enve 2.2 running Schwalbe Pro One tubeless. Needed one of those reserve chamber pumps to get the bead to seat, again using Stans tape... overall the install was average, not hard or easy. I have had 3 cuts on the rear ..all did not seal with Orange Seal. Decided to shelf tubeless for awhile and install Turbo Cottons... The front was pretty hard to get on.. the rear was hard to get the old tire off and terrible to get the TCs on. Changed the tape to Silca and it went on, but was hard.

was selling a set of Enve 4.5 (not tubeless ready) might keep them now, because they have never been hard to mount tires.

NickJHP
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am

by NickJHP

I've been running Schwalbe S-One 700x30 tubeless on DT Swiss R23 spline wheels on my Audax bike for about 18 months. With that combination of tyre and rim I can get the tyres on by hand. During that time, I've had three or four punctures, all of which have been sealed within a few seconds by the sealant (Orange Seal). I use 40ml of Orange Seal and top it up with another 40ml every six months. I replaced the rear tyre after about a year due to wear, and found when I dismounted it that there was still a small amount of liquid Orange Seal inside, with most of the sealant having dried in a thin film on the inside surface of the tyre.

That size of tyre I inflate to 55psi front and 75psi rear. I'm also running tubeless on my gravel bike, but there I have 48mm tyres @ 25psi front and 35psi rear.

zefs
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

I feel like doing marketing work for Mavic lately and keep repeating myself on this and another forum but, Mavic UST is where it's at in my opinion, using Ksyrium Elite UST wheels setting up tubeless is easy and works great. I haven't gotten a puncture yet to test the sealant but in general I was getting couple of punctures per year on tubes. Sealant drying/topping shouldn't be an issue since my tires are usually done before the suggested 6 month effectiveness of the usual sealants.

*Tires mount/unmount by hand (atleast on low profile UST)
*Tires seal with normal floor pump
*Tires stay seated when deflated

The other day I was able to swap front and back tire (to get a bit more life out of Galactik's) and didn't even remove the sealant for the swap, that's how easy they are to mount. One issue is that not every tire works with these rims because of the tolerances, I had to return Schwalbe Pro One's because they couldn't be mounted even with 2 levers. Yksion UST and Hutchinson tires work since they are made by Hutchinson, same compound but more to choose from.

With 80/85 psi tubeless rolls as good (at least from my testing) as having 100-120psi on tubed tires (last ones I used were Vittoria Corsa G+ and Michelin Power Competition) and you get the extra comfort.

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IrrelevantD
Posts: 290
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:47 pm
Location: Near DFW Airport

by IrrelevantD

WinterRider wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:59 pm
Sealant drying out .. Finish Line has to date done well re-sealing beads fixed w Orange Sealant for me. I get few flats.. not relying on sealant for punctures. See no reason to carry the ounces of dry sealant.. rather run tubes then. If a Finish Line type non drying product proves out that CAN effectively seal punctures then we'd have something. Online reviews of FLine as a puncture sealant aren't encouraging. Edit: call to Finish Line w them saying fine to use over Orange if the Orange had dried.
I bought a small bottle of Finish Line sealant to test. Worthless, waste of $4. Lost nearly the entire contents of the tire out a sub-2mm hole at 70-80psi. Thankfully I was wasn't too far from home. Only had to walk 5 miles (was a brand new tire, didn't want to ruin it or risk damaging the rim by riding it flat). Long story short... don't trust your frined at the shop that says "here try this new thing" when you know full and well that Stan's Race sealant works great.

nemeseri wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:30 pm
No. Somehow I've only read negative comments regarding setup, sealants, flat protection etc. And those discourage me from trying. I'd love to hear first hand good experiences, success stories about sealed flats and clean and simple setups. Somebody might even point me to a no-BS faq page about tubeless. Also the benefits are a bit hazy to me, so I need some education in that area too.

My only experience with tubeless is that my previous tubeless ready rims were extremely thight and I disliked them because I had to wrestle to get my tires on them (yes, even with using the channel in the middle).
I've had mostly great experience running road tubeless over the last 10 years. The biggest problems I've had generally come from using synthetic based sealants such as Orange Seal, Slime and now Finish Line as noted above.

I have no hard numbers to prove this, but I would estimate that running tubeless probably saves me money due to the cost of replacing tubes over the course of the year and the time saved not being stuck on the side of the road replacing tubes has been incalculable. I have only had to call for a rescue twice in that time, both times were due to sealant failure, again, synthetic sealant. I have had to ride home on a completely flat tire once, and had to walk once. Again, both due to selant failure. Again... that is over a 10 year period, which about equals the number of times I needed a rescue or had to walk home in the prior handful of years.

Setup isnt that dificult if you have the right tools and know how to do it. I can remove, clean, re-tape and re-setup a pair of wheels in about 20-30min with no special tools other than a valve core remover and a 60ml syringe to inject the sealant and my Bontrager TLR pump. Depending on the rim and the tire, I can ocasionally mount the tire on the rim without levers, and this is due to tecnique, not due to superior hand grip, which I do not possess.

So benefits: less time on the side of the road with the wheels off the bike, better road feel (similar to high TPI cotton or open tubulars), saves money due to offset between cost of sealant vs. cost of tubes (cost of tires is a wash as I was paying $60+/tire for Vittoria Open Corsa's prior to switch).

Downside: can sometimes be messy, if you let the tire go completely flat you're pretty much f-ed. You probably should cary a pump and not just CO2, but then you probably should cary one of those anyway.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

MikeD
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

IrrelevantD wrote:
WinterRider wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:59 pm
Sealant drying out .. Finish Line has to date done well re-sealing beads fixed w Orange Sealant for me. I get few flats.. not relying on sealant for punctures. See no reason to carry the ounces of dry sealant.. rather run tubes then. If a Finish Line type non drying product proves out that CAN effectively seal punctures then we'd have something. Online reviews of FLine as a puncture sealant aren't encouraging. Edit: call to Finish Line w them saying fine to use over Orange if the Orange had dried.
I bought a small bottle of Finish Line sealant to test. Worthless, waste of $4. Lost nearly the entire contents of the tire out a sub-2mm hole at 70-80psi. Thankfully I was wasn't too far from home. Only had to walk 5 miles (was a brand new tire, didn't want to ruin it or risk damaging the rim by riding it flat). Long story short... don't trust your frined at the shop that says "here try this new thing" when you know full and well that Stan's Race sealant works great.

nemeseri wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:30 pm
No. Somehow I've only read negative comments regarding setup, sealants, flat protection etc. And those discourage me from trying. I'd love to hear first hand good experiences, success stories about sealed flats and clean and simple setups. Somebody might even point me to a no-BS faq page about tubeless. Also the benefits are a bit hazy to me, so I need some education in that area too.

My only experience with tubeless is that my previous tubeless ready rims were extremely thight and I disliked them because I had to wrestle to get my tires on them (yes, even with using the channel in the middle).
I've had mostly great experience running road tubeless over the last 10 years. The biggest problems I've had generally come from using synthetic based sealants such as Orange Seal, Slime and now Finish Line as noted above.

I have no hard numbers to prove this, but I would estimate that running tubeless probably saves me money due to the cost of replacing tubes over the course of the year and the time saved not being stuck on the side of the road replacing tubes has been incalculable. I have only had to call for a rescue twice in that time, both times were due to sealant failure, again, synthetic sealant. I have had to ride home on a completely flat tire once, and had to walk once. Again, both due to selant failure. Again... that is over a 10 year period, which about equals the number of times I needed a rescue or had to walk home in the prior handful of years.

Setup isnt that dificult if you have the right tools and know how to do it. I can remove, clean, re-tape and re-setup a pair of wheels in about 20-30min with no special tools other than a valve core remover and a 60ml syringe to inject the sealant and my Bontrager TLR pump. Depending on the rim and the tire, I can ocasionally mount the tire on the rim without levers, and this is due to tecnique, not due to superior hand grip, which I do not possess.

So benefits: less time on the side of the road with the wheels off the bike, better road feel (similar to high TPI cotton or open tubulars), saves money due to offset between cost of sealant vs. cost of tubes (cost of tires is a wash as I was paying $60+/tire for Vittoria Open Corsa's prior to switch).

Downside: can sometimes be messy, if you let the tire go completely flat you're pretty much f-ed. You probably should cary a pump and not just CO2, but then you probably should cary one of those anyway.
Most of us think Orange Seal is the best sealant. I've had good luck with it as well. Not sure why your experience is contrary to that. Also, CO2 is not compatible with some (maybe most) sealants.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1384
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MikeD wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:14 pm

Most of us think Orange Seal is the best sealant. I've had good luck with it as well. Not sure why your experience is contrary to that. Also, CO2 is not compatible with some (maybe most) sealants.
Agree about Orange Seal. Stan's Race might be better at sealing, but it's thick enough that Stan's recommends not injecting it through the valve, and it dries in half the time. Also there's still the issue of Stan's creating boogers inside the tire.

As for the second point, CO2 is only bad because the pressurized gas is very cold. This should not be a huge issue if you inflate the tire with the valve at 12 o'clock. On the other hand unless you are in a competition, I don't really see much point in carrying CO2. I puncture infrequently enough that I just use the smallest/lightest mini-pump I could find: a Topeak Micro Rocket. It's a truly shitty mini-pump, but that doesn't matter when I might use it a couple times in a year.

2old4this
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:26 am

by 2old4this

I am not quite sure of the tubeless. Please see the following tread
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 3&t=150633

However, I have to admit even the 28 mm tires on a not so smooth road feels much less bumpy.

Two questions, while we are at it...
- I still don't see how one can go down to 40-60 psi on these tires (mines are Hutchenson Sector 28), and the minimum pressure is 87 psi (printed on the tire.)
- I've put 40 ml Orange Seal on each tire. They are slowly deflating over 4-5 days. How much sealant do you guys put on each tire?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 1384
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I don't care about minimum pressures printed on sidewalls. Hutchinson doesn't know how much I weigh, nor do they know how wide my rims are (affecting the volume inside the tire.) I run 28mm tires <60psi most of the time...The less pressure in the tire, the less likely I am to puncture when I'm running over random broken glass too.

The amount of sealant in your tire doesn't affect your static seal. Losing around 2-3 psi daily at higher pressures is fairly normal. You lose more pressure using tires with latex tubes. At lower pressures I lose 1-2psi daily. I use around 25mL of sealant.

zefs
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

Yes, deflation is normal, same for the setup I use.
Not as bad as latex tubes and it's not an issue if you ride often.

by Weenie


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