20H 12-8 lacing

[WinterRider]

From available parts on hand.. one solution to very low NDS w some of the 11 sp rears. In this case the Powerway R13 giving 41% tension ratio.. like many today.
12-8 lacing increased that ratio to 58%. Wheel is very stiff.

[ergott]

Why didn't you cross the DS spokes? Radial heads out is the least laterally stiff pattern.

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[WinterRider]

Why didn't you cross the DS spokes? Radial heads out is the least laterally stiff pattern.

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Laterally stiff.. what does your math say (stiffness) vs crossed?

Mine sez not enough to matter.. for this application. And 'available parts on hand'.

[ergott]

You lost about 2.5mm of bracing angle. Not hard to figue out that's not ideal.

[bm0p700f]

Also fewer spokes on the nds on a standard hub means lower lateral stiffness as the nds contributes more thanks the ds.

Ergott has mentioned the other problem.

Ds radial lacing sadly increases tension changes in those spokes. It all depends on how tangential the nds spokes are. If one side radial the other needs to be tangentially spoked to me minimise tension changes from pedalling torque.

Therefore to improve tension balance you have decreased lateral stiffness. Ultimatley that will lead to faster spoke fatigue . If lateral and torsional stiffness is reduced the tension and therefore length changes in the spokes are bigger and the spokes fatigue at a faster rate.

If you have a hub with low tension balance just use a stiffer rim, a few more spokes or thicker ones. Sure that adds weight but frankly there is no way around this with 11 speed.

[bm0p700f]

However you have experimented and there is nothing wrong with that.

Heads out Ds lacing maybe safer long run than heads in. Some hubs won't be able to cope with heads in under high tension. This is something I have not experimented with though.

[bm0p700f]

If you used an offset rim you would have achieved much if goal without a noticeable loss in stiffness.

[kavitator]

What rims did you use?

Mavic and old zippppps has that lacing patteren. As mentioned- DS flange will get more force also spokes than with 2x crossed.

[TheKaiser]

Why didn't you cross the DS spokes? Radial heads out is the least laterally stiff pattern.

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What's your opinion on radial driveside with heads in? I know it will increase stress on the flange, and potentially cause an increase in windup due to hub shell twist, but it has always seemed like a good way to get some extra bracing angle out of the mix. That is all theoretical though, so I guess what I am asking is, what is your take on the real world value or lack thereof?

[ergott]

Have to make sure not only that the flange can take it, but also derailleur clearance. Wind-up is a distant 3rd concern. In the past I have done 1X heads in, but always using CX-Rays that have a short enough butted end that they crossed at the bladed section. It's doable, but I'd rather have other solutions.



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[TheKaiser]

Sorry, was editing my post as you sent a reply, so sequence might be a bit wacky here! One other related topic I was curious to get your take on is, with slow spoke count wheels it can become practical to cross the drive spokes but with all heads in, since a lot of room is opened up by dropping the spoke count. What do you think about that possibility as a way to get the improved torque transfer of crossed spokes, while keeping the better bracing angle of going all heads in?

[TheKaiser]

Sorry, was editing my post as you sent a reply, so sequence might be a bit wacky here! Was just editing to ask about all heads in with crossed spokes and saw you already addressed it, thanks! Yeah, seems like a decent way to get the improved torque transfer of crossed spokes, while keeping the better bracing angle of going all heads in, but as you point out, there is derailleur clearance to consider. CX-rays are a good tip to squeeze a little more space out of things.

[bm0p700f]

Torsional stiffness is not affected by hub flange to centre spacing. It is affected by how close to the tangent of the hub flange the spokes are. Spoke count and spoke guage are relevant. Flange pcd is too.

Doing heads in lacing will not improve torque transfer. The bends in the spokes are severe too and are a potential weakness hense why ergott used CX rays as that minimises the risk.

I imagine ergott did 1x ds heads in to improve lateral wheel stiffness and nds spoke tension on an oddball wheel where this was the least worst option, possibly with a rim that could not take much tension.

[alcatraz]

I think you can snap your hub body in two or maybe your nds flange if you pedal really hard up a climb with a low gear. You have here only 4 spokes that pull the wheel when you accelerate. Those four spokes will be under a tremendous stress.

I think it's great that you are willing to experiment. Maybe it will work great. Who knows..

I would have put all the DS spokes outward instead of inward (increases ds offset = reduces ds tension requirement) and NDS spokes alternating in/out to get more pressure at the outer cross point. (Don't ask me why, just feels right. Even lightweight joins those points together so my intuition tells me more pressure there the better.) And you definitely need more spokes to handle the torsional load (acceleration). Cross both sides before you break your hub.

/a

[WinterRider]

I think you can snap your hub body in two or maybe your nds flange if you pedal really hard up a climb with a low gear. You have here only 4 spokes that pull the wheel when you accelerate. Those four spokes will be under a tremendous stress.

I think it's great that you are willing to experiment. Maybe it will work great. Who knows..

I would have put all the DS spokes outward instead of inward (increases ds offset = reduces ds tension requirement) and NDS spokes alternating in/out to get more pressure at the outer cross point. (Don't ask me why, just feels right. Even lightweight joins those points together so my intuition tells me more pressure there the better.) And you definitely need more spokes to handle the torsional load (acceleration). Cross both sides before you break your hub.

/a

LMAO. Made me laugh. Thanks... needed one.