Bora WTO

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
maxim809
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 am

by maxim809

Ride Report Summary:

tldr; Super fast, so fast I can't handle it which is speaking to me as a rider; added +1mph to my avg; +3mph to my top-end; horrifying in crosswinds; carbon rim brake technology has come a long way and it's bittersweet that disc is taking all the R&D energy right now; perfect wheels for flats/rollers/calm conditions; would buy again wish I did sooner; A++ thanks Campy.


The Book Report Edition (and for zappa and those others who are curious):

The conditions:
  1. Setup: WTO 60's - Setup Clincher 25mm GP5k's @ 85psi
  2. I'm 63kg±1kg.
  3. The wind conditions here in summer are 2mph to 22mph (3kph to 32kph) based on time of day. Every. Freaking. Day.

Seriously, handling deep dish in heavy cross winds is crazy when you're light.
Wind conditions for this coming week in July, followed by a typical Wind(max) last month in June.

Image

Image

Anyway...

Did a 70mi/2.6kft flat/roller out-and-back yesterday, one I do very often solo.

1. Was able to add +1mph avg (hand-wavey I know, rofl)

Was able to average +20mph solo, including stoplights. Usually finish with 19mph on Shamal Mille equipped on the same bike.

I get it I get it y'all -- need to look at avg power, where you used the power, and even then there's way too much uncontrolled variation across 70mi's to make a judgement. Alls I can say is it took way less effort on these wheels to finish the ride on a course I do very often and am familiar with for the past several years. I cruised over half the ride in Z1~Z2, whereas on the Shamals I am killing myself in Z3 and higher.


2. Textured brake tracks and red pads are strong.

I've ridden Bora 35's before, and the WTO's stop just as great. Campy carbon braking is famous for a reason. I'll have to see how quickly the pads degrade. Blue Pads on anodized black aluminum wear out super fast (and yes, fast degradation is part of why the pads stop so well. Physics.)


3. Sounds like a silly paid-for bike review, but for deep dish carbon rims the WTO's are stiff without being stupid harsh.
  1. Maybe I got lucky, but the WTO 60's are working perfectly on my XR4, without any undesirable "surprise" system flex. I've done a few deep dish + frame combos in the past where introducing the carbon deep dish caused completely messed up flex, which always result in rubbing brake calipers, which results in opening the calipers, which results in even worse braking performance on weak carbon brake tracks. Mother fuuuu-----
  2. Yes, I understand now that this always comes down to hub + spoke count. https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunki ... _3449.html
  3. My point is, back in the early/mid 2010's there was a TON of bad carbon wheels out there so no matter how many times you rebuilt the wheels or switched them across frames, you had to go out of your way to buy a new hub or spokes or rim to get them to stop flexing. To the point where sometimes, buying off-the shelf carbon rims was setting you up to just buy a custom wheel build anyway (thanks Enve and FFWD). I'm just happy that the WTO's "just work" out of the box. Funny to this day I still have such low expectations.
  4. Next point, is those circa-2015 carbon wheels were unnecessarily stiff and harsh. It's like the early-day carbon frames when manufacturers were still experimenting and trying to figure themselves out. Some frames would be super light, super stiff, and super terrible to ride. In modern times, it seems like most manufacturers have found a balance between weight, comfort, stiffness. These are the WTO's. And these are exciting times to live in.
  5. Overall, carbon rims have come a long way. It's kind of sad to see the technology being shoved out of the spotlight right as things are starting to get interesting. All the energy is being poured into disc right now.

4. My top end sprint added +3mph.

I went from 32mph to 35mph for similar bursts. I'm struggling to understand why. First, new wheel placebo motivation's playing into it. Second, I know these wheels are heavier. Once I spin up the wheels, it simply easier to "keep spinning" past beyond what I can do on lighter wheels. It is making me rethink some of my WW builds. Lastly, the few extra aero watts saved at higher speeds must be helping me penetrate that upper end ceiling. Kinda cool. Thanks placebo effect, I'll give the crown to you.


5. Dude, crosswinds freakin' blow. Hard.

Everything about these wheels are fine and dandy when I left in the morning with gentle 5mph breezes. Then the afternoon +17mph winds hit. Sweet baby Jesus. I was actually glad because I was morbidly curious to see how they do in crosswinds. The gusts come from all angles and lasts for hours in the unexposed sections. It is downright dangerous as I'm draining lots of energy holding the bike straight and fighting imminent speed wobble. Also, I'm riding at average speeds of +27~30mph on some of these -2% straightaways, so managing the newfound speed with the potential consequences is downright horrifying.

Ironic, even.

It was really hard to handle and if I were to do it again, WTO 45mm's are the all-day wheels. However, the goal of these wheels was to equip them on a full-aero setup. So for a build where I swung the pendulum in that extreme, the WTO 60's are perfect. I'm only going to take these out for early mornings when conditions are calm, and moreso during non-summer seasons when the wind chills out.

Next Steps:

Waiting on Vittoria Corsa TL's to arrive. Gonna research what PSI to run them at. If anyone has recommendations, lemme know.

I gave up on the 25mm GP5k TL's. If anyone wants to buy the pair I'll sell them $50ea.

Yeah... awesome wheels....
2013 Cannondale Synapse | 2015 LaPierre Pulsium | 2016 Pinarello Dogma F8 | 2016 Bianchi XR4 | 2019 Spesh Sprint

choochoo46
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:19 am

by choochoo46

How are folks finding the ceramic ball bearings are holding up and any plans to swap them out for steel bearings?

by Weenie


bdb
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:35 pm

by bdb

Just picked up WTO45 ( moutned corsa's on them with tubes ) and about to go for a spin.

Busy thread is there a consensuse on best tire for Tubeless?

neeb
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

Debating between WTO 33, WTO 45 and Bora ultra/one 35 clinchers for a future purchase..

I already have Bora One 35 tubulars, which I love. The new wheels would be swapped with these on the lightweight bike (as and when), for clincher convenience.

I've had the Bora 50 tubs before and didn't actually get on with them. Brutally rigid and affected by gusty crosswinds (I'm light at 63kg). I'm guessing that the WTO45s might be similar in that regard, or does the newer profile and 5mm shallower depth make them any different?

So, I'm tempted by the WTO33s, except for some comments implying that they aren't quite as snappy feeling as the Bora 35s. Except - were people comparing like with like, i.e. rim brake clincher vs. rim brake clincher?

Does the wider profile of the WTO33s lead to a noticeably better ride feel? I'd probably be going old school and running 23mm tyres on them. That might be an argument for going for the Bora 35s, except I'm guessing that even a 23mm clincher will be wider than the 24.2mm external rim width when mounted? It's a different matter with tubs, where the measured size when mounted doesn't change much. On my 35 tubs I'm running Vittoria Corsa 23mm front, 25mm back.

Cycomanic
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:10 pm

by Cycomanic

choochoo46 wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:53 pm
How are folks finding the ceramic ball bearings are holding up and any plans to swap them out for steel bearings?
My WTO45s came with USB as do all WTOs except for the 77mm ones I believe. I have been contemplating swapping mine to ceramic once they give up (the bikeshop which sold me the bike as a demo bike, did not care for the bearings properly so they feel like they might go soon). Ceramic makes more sense on wheels than BB in my opinion and the price difference between USB and CULT is not very big.

Cycomanic
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:10 pm

by Cycomanic

neeb wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:21 pm
Debating between WTO 33, WTO 45 and Bora ultra/one 35 clinchers for a future purchase..

I already have Bora One 35 tubulars, which I love. The new wheels would be swapped with these on the lightweight bike (as and when), for clincher convenience.

I've had the Bora 50 tubs before and didn't actually get on with them. Brutally rigid and affected by gusty crosswinds (I'm light at 63kg). I'm guessing that the WTO45s might be similar in that regard, or does the newer profile and 5mm shallower depth make them any different?

So, I'm tempted by the WTO33s, except for some comments implying that they aren't quite as snappy feeling as the Bora 35s. Except - were people comparing like with like, i.e. rim brake clincher vs. rim brake clincher?

Does the wider profile of the WTO33s lead to a noticeably better ride feel? I'd probably be going old school and running 23mm tyres on them. That might be an argument for going for the Bora 35s, except I'm guessing that even a 23mm clincher will be wider than the 24.2mm external rim width when mounted? It's a different matter with tubs, where the measured size when mounted doesn't change much. On my 35 tubs I'm running Vittoria Corsa 23mm front, 25mm back.
I can't comment on the 33s but I can give you a vote for the WTO45s which I have after coming from a 2015 Giant Propel with Cadex wheels (45 or 50mm) and the difference in crosswinds is like night and day. I have written about this before (look some pages back), I was out in some seriously gusty conditions (i.e. where you had lean into the wind and if a gust came it pushed the whole body by 1m to the side). The WTOs behaved only marginally worse than my shimano C24s on my winter bike (I was out in both bikes on very similar days), i.e. there was no problem holding the wheel steady (you still had to balance the bike though, because the gusts were pushing the body). In comparison, on the Propel in mildly windy conditions I would seriously think about taking even one hand of the bars, because it felt unsafe. I am heavier than you though (~80kg, somewhat out of shape atm).

I'm not sure what you refer to by rigid, I prefer my wheels to be as stiff as possible and try to get comfort from going for 25mm tires (I'm running Schwalbe One Pro tubeless).

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1564
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

Cycomanic wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:27 pm
choochoo46 wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:53 pm
How are folks finding the ceramic ball bearings are holding up and any plans to swap them out for steel bearings?
My WTO45s came with USB as do all WTOs except for the 77mm ones I believe. I have been contemplating swapping mine to ceramic once they give up (the bikeshop which sold me the bike as a demo bike, did not care for the bearings properly so they feel like they might go soon). Ceramic makes more sense on wheels than BB in my opinion and the price difference between USB and CULT is not very big.
You are correct.. the WTO 77 is "CULT"d the others are not... staring at my 77 on my TT bike right now..
I have done the CULT mod to 2 sets of WTOs.. its very easy, but make sure you have the proper Cyclus tools to do it if you do it yourself..
I called my local shop (Campy certified) and asked them if they had the proper tools.. I was told "We don't have the campy ones, but we'll have something that will work" yeah... that got me online with bike24 and I ordered it myself...

neeb
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

Cycomanic wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:40 pm
I can't comment on the 33s but I can give you a vote for the WTO45s which I have after coming from a 2015 Giant Propel with Cadex wheels (45 or 50mm) and the difference in crosswinds is like night and day. I have written about this before (look some pages back), I was out in some seriously gusty conditions (i.e. where you had lean into the wind and if a gust came it pushed the whole body by 1m to the side). The WTOs behaved only marginally worse than my shimano C24s on my winter bike (I was out in both bikes on very similar days), i.e. there was no problem holding the wheel steady (you still had to balance the bike though, because the gusts were pushing the body). In comparison, on the Propel in mildly windy conditions I would seriously think about taking even one hand of the bars, because it felt unsafe. I am heavier than you though (~80kg, somewhat out of shape atm).

I'm not sure what you refer to by rigid, I prefer my wheels to be as stiff as possible and try to get comfort from going for 25mm tires (I'm running Schwalbe One Pro tubeless).
Interesting, thanks. It's amazing how different wheels of the same depth can be much better or worse in crosswinds. I have Reynolds Aeros on other bikes (58 and 46) and they are spectacularly good in crosswinds for their depth, and very fast. I wouldn't 100% trust their braking or rim stability in the mountains though, unlike Campagnolo AC3s. The Bora 50s were... not so good in crosswinds. But the 35s are no problem at all.

I know everyone else loves the Bora 50s, but there was someting about the way mine rode I found a little "wooden", if that makes sense. Very much a subjective thing. They felt a bit joyless to pedal. Might have been down to them being fitted on a very stiff frame. The 35s I much prefer, however, and I like the ride feel of the deeper section Reynolds too (so it wasn't down to weight / deepness of section).

Cycomanic
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:10 pm

by Cycomanic

neeb wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:01 pm
Cycomanic wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:40 pm
I can't comment on the 33s but I can give you a vote for the WTO45s which I have after coming from a 2015 Giant Propel with Cadex wheels (45 or 50mm) and the difference in crosswinds is like night and day. I have written about this before (look some pages back), I was out in some seriously gusty conditions (i.e. where you had lean into the wind and if a gust came it pushed the whole body by 1m to the side). The WTOs behaved only marginally worse than my shimano C24s on my winter bike (I was out in both bikes on very similar days), i.e. there was no problem holding the wheel steady (you still had to balance the bike though, because the gusts were pushing the body). In comparison, on the Propel in mildly windy conditions I would seriously think about taking even one hand of the bars, because it felt unsafe. I am heavier than you though (~80kg, somewhat out of shape atm).

I'm not sure what you refer to by rigid, I prefer my wheels to be as stiff as possible and try to get comfort from going for 25mm tires (I'm running Schwalbe One Pro tubeless).
Interesting, thanks. It's amazing how different wheels of the same depth can be much better or worse in crosswinds. I have Reynolds Aeros on other bikes (58 and 46) and they are spectacularly good in crosswinds for their depth, and very fast. I wouldn't 100% trust their braking or rim stability in the mountains though, unlike Campagnolo AC3s. The Bora 50s were... not so good in crosswinds. But the 35s are no problem at all.
Yes I was also very surprised, I didn't expect this much of a difference. There certainly has been a lot of development on this front in the last years (much more than the actual aeroperformance).

Cycomanic
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:10 pm

by Cycomanic

maxim809 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:27 pm
Ride Report Summary:

tldr; Super fast, so fast I can't handle it which is speaking to me as a rider; added +1mph to my avg; +3mph to my top-end; horrifying in crosswinds; carbon rim brake technology has come a long way and it's bittersweet that disc is taking all the R&D energy right now; perfect wheels for flats/rollers/calm conditions; would buy again wish I did sooner; A++ thanks Campy.


The Book Report Edition (and for zappa and those others who are curious):

The conditions:
  1. Setup: WTO 60's - Setup Clincher 25mm GP5k's @ 85psi
  2. I'm 63kg±1kg.
  3. The wind conditions here in summer are 2mph to 22mph (3kph to 32kph) based on time of day. Every. Freaking. Day.

Seriously, handling deep dish in heavy cross winds is crazy when you're light.
Wind conditions for this coming week in July, followed by a typical Wind(max) last month in June.

Image

Image

Anyway...

Did a 70mi/2.6kft flat/roller out-and-back yesterday, one I do very often solo.

1. Was able to add +1mph avg (hand-wavey I know, rofl)

Was able to average +20mph solo, including stoplights. Usually finish with 19mph on Shamal Mille equipped on the same bike.

I get it I get it y'all -- need to look at avg power, where you used the power, and even then there's way too much uncontrolled variation across 70mi's to make a judgement. Alls I can say is it took way less effort on these wheels to finish the ride on a course I do very often and am familiar with for the past several years. I cruised over half the ride in Z1~Z2, whereas on the Shamals I am killing myself in Z3 and higher.


2. Textured brake tracks and red pads are strong.

I've ridden Bora 35's before, and the WTO's stop just as great. Campy carbon braking is famous for a reason. I'll have to see how quickly the pads degrade. Blue Pads on anodized black aluminum wear out super fast (and yes, fast degradation is part of why the pads stop so well. Physics.)


3. Sounds like a silly paid-for bike review, but for deep dish carbon rims the WTO's are stiff without being stupid harsh.
  1. Maybe I got lucky, but the WTO 60's are working perfectly on my XR4, without any undesirable "surprise" system flex. I've done a few deep dish + frame combos in the past where introducing the carbon deep dish caused completely messed up flex, which always result in rubbing brake calipers, which results in opening the calipers, which results in even worse braking performance on weak carbon brake tracks. Mother fuuuu-----
  2. Yes, I understand now that this always comes down to hub + spoke count. https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunki ... _3449.html
  3. My point is, back in the early/mid 2010's there was a TON of bad carbon wheels out there so no matter how many times you rebuilt the wheels or switched them across frames, you had to go out of your way to buy a new hub or spokes or rim to get them to stop flexing. To the point where sometimes, buying off-the shelf carbon rims was setting you up to just buy a custom wheel build anyway (thanks Enve and FFWD). I'm just happy that the WTO's "just work" out of the box. Funny to this day I still have such low expectations.
  4. Next point, is those circa-2015 carbon wheels were unnecessarily stiff and harsh. It's like the early-day carbon frames when manufacturers were still experimenting and trying to figure themselves out. Some frames would be super light, super stiff, and super terrible to ride. In modern times, it seems like most manufacturers have found a balance between weight, comfort, stiffness. These are the WTO's. And these are exciting times to live in.
  5. Overall, carbon rims have come a long way. It's kind of sad to see the technology being shoved out of the spotlight right as things are starting to get interesting. All the energy is being poured into disc right now.

4. My top end sprint added +3mph.

I went from 32mph to 35mph for similar bursts. I'm struggling to understand why. First, new wheel placebo motivation's playing into it. Second, I know these wheels are heavier. Once I spin up the wheels, it simply easier to "keep spinning" past beyond what I can do on lighter wheels. It is making me rethink some of my WW builds. Lastly, the few extra aero watts saved at higher speeds must be helping me penetrate that upper end ceiling. Kinda cool. Thanks placebo effect, I'll give the crown to you.


5. Dude, crosswinds freakin' blow. Hard.

Everything about these wheels are fine and dandy when I left in the morning with gentle 5mph breezes. Then the afternoon +17mph winds hit. Sweet baby Jesus. I was actually glad because I was morbidly curious to see how they do in crosswinds. The gusts come from all angles and lasts for hours in the unexposed sections. It is downright dangerous as I'm draining lots of energy holding the bike straight and fighting imminent speed wobble. Also, I'm riding at average speeds of +27~30mph on some of these -2% straightaways, so managing the newfound speed with the potential consequences is downright horrifying.

Ironic, even.

It was really hard to handle and if I were to do it again, WTO 45mm's are the all-day wheels. However, the goal of these wheels was to equip them on a full-aero setup. So for a build where I swung the pendulum in that extreme, the WTO 60's are perfect. I'm only going to take these out for early mornings when conditions are calm, and moreso during non-summer seasons when the wind chills out.

Next Steps:

Waiting on Vittoria Corsa TL's to arrive. Gonna research what PSI to run them at. If anyone has recommendations, lemme know.

I gave up on the 25mm GP5k TL's. If anyone wants to buy the pair I'll sell them $50ea.

Yeah... awesome wheels....
With those windconditions you should take up sailing or windsurfing (well one could argue with 60mm wheels you already are :lol: ), that looks like perfect. If you would not used imperial units I would have guessed you live in Freemantle in Western Australia.

kevinw
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:49 pm

by kevinw

Having had my WTO 60 wheelset over a year now I can honestly say that I'd never not ride these wheels due to wind. Their resistance to getting blown around in crosswinds is excellent. I'm 78kg so heaver than I few of the above posters but I have no upper body stregth!

KSP498
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:48 pm

by KSP498

jlok wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:06 am
Mounted Veloflex Master 25mm without drama.
What do the Veloflex actually measure on there?

jlok
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

KSP498 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:21 pm
jlok wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:06 am
Mounted Veloflex Master 25mm without drama.
What do the Veloflex actually measure on there?
25mm spot on. Make sure you get the SPS version as mine got sidewall tear starting from the bead...
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

zaykay
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:14 am

by zaykay

My 2 cents about wto 45 discs. Excellent looks, stiffness and rolling resistance. They really roll so smooth. Also finishing is superb, they look really good on bike. Imo crosswind performance is average and they ride slightly harsh due to stiffness. My previous set was Easton EC90 55 Aero and being wider equals smoother ride on same tires. Also cross wind performance is very similar eventhough they are deeper.

by Weenie


jlok
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

zaykay wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:39 pm
My 2 cents about wto 45 discs. Excellent looks, stiffness and rolling resistance. They really roll so smooth. Also finishing is superb, they look really good on bike. Imo crosswind performance is average and they ride slightly harsh due to stiffness. My previous set was Easton EC90 55 Aero and being wider equals smoother ride on same tires. Also cross wind performance is very similar eventhough they are deeper.
I concur. I changed from WTO45db to Speed 55 db and to my surprise the Speed 55 is more comfortable and track better.
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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