First Wheel Build...

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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grahus
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

by grahus

Hi,

As part of building up my Project-X carbon bike, I decided to build my first set of wheels, just for fun and to see how easy or difficult it could be!
So after some quite extensive research I decided on the following components, and I won't lie, they were chosen to be as light, inexpensive and easy to build as possible in case it didn't work out.

Front Wheel;
Kinlin XR-22T 20h 450g
Bitex RAF10 20h 66g (Radial)
Sapim Race 144g (Black, brass nipples)

Total 660g


Rear Wheel;
Kinlin XR-22RT 24h 450g (asymetric)
Bitex RAR9 24h 191g (2:1, DS 2x, NDS Radial)
Sapim Race 175g (Black, brass nipples)

Total 816g


So the first issue I had was, and it wasn't until it arrived on my doorstep, that I realised the rear hub was a 2:1 lacing, 16 x DS, 8 x NDS spokes! Nothing like a challenge for your first build, right? Now I was really scratching my head trying to figure out how to calculate the spoke lengths....I think I found a formula on the internet which I could use to lace the DS up as 2x. Then I ordered front and rear spokes and a cheap wheel truing stand.

Front Wheel Build
The front wheel was easy to lace and easy to true. I wanted a radial patern for looks and simplicity and after following several good tutorials online managed to build myself a pretty nice wheel. It took a few hours just getting the hang of what I was doing, tensioning it all up, backing off a bit, re-tensioning, just getting the feel for it, but in the end no dramas. I've since ridden the wheel about 500km and it is still as true as when I built it.

So how true is it? Well, it was build on a cheap stand on a Bitex hub, so it is as true as I could make it. The stand can ocassionally rock ever so slightly, but after checking on the bike against the seat stay its going to be fine. There is a very, very slight hop at one point on the rim, only just noticable on the stand, but under 1mm.

Rear Wheel Build
When I started on the rear wheel it was all looking ok during lacing up until I realised that the DS spokes were going to be too long! So after a hasty rethink I laced them 3x and that solved that problem. It was probably just my inexperience in calculating the lengths which led to this. I had chosen the Kinlin asymetric specifically so I could offset slightly, and hopefully help me when tensioning up. After sorting out the lacing and tensioning up the rear it took a fair few iterations of going round, adding tension, de-stressing, going round, adding tesion, de-stressing....than the front, but I didn't find this too hard by the end.
Of course, I don't have a Dishing Tool, but two tumblers and some loose change sufficed this time....
The wheel has also done about 500km's since being built, and I re-trued it very slightly after a couple of rides, so I am quite happy with the way this one turned out too.

Tyres
For the first few rides I put on the Vittoria Rubino Pro G+ , as in the picture.
Both wheels had generic rim tape added and Conti Race tubes.
The rear tyre went on, just, but it was tight, even using all the tricks I could muster.
The front tyre, that was a struggle. I just could not get that on without using levers, so I managed to go through several tubes before finally getting it on. By the end I had replaced the rim tape with some Stans Tubeless tape and had to soap the tyre bead....and still had to use one lever!

After a few rides where I just hoped I never flatted (I had also put Orange Sealant into the Conti tubes at this point), I ended up changing over to Hutchison Fusion 5 Performace Tubeless. So I replaced the rear rim strip with more Stans, stuck on the valves and the Fusion 5's mounted as easily as my Maxxis MTB tyres!! Added some Hutchison Sealant which came with the tyres and they have been perfect ever since, inflating easily with the track pump. I run them at 75psi /80psi R and weigh 84kg.

The Vittorias Rubino Pros 25's were 250g, 27g for rim tape and Conti Race tubes were 104, all x 2 which gave 762g on top of the wheels (1476) for a total of 2238g.

The Hutchison Fusion 5 Performance 25's were 250g, 15g for tubeless tape, 7g for valve and 25g for fluid, which gives 584g, add the wheels and it gives 2060g.

So I am happy I went tubeless for the slight weight reduction and, for me, ease of installation. I carry tyre worms, patch kit and for now a tube, just in case. After reading some of the Forum Posts I'll add a small tube of sealant and some flexible superglue and probably ditch the tube.

The ride...
So how do they ride?
Well, they are still round, they have not crumpled at the first corner and I'm pretty please with a first attempt at wheel building.

My main uncertainty is, are they tensioned enough? or are they stiff enough? That is difficult for me to quantify as someone who doesn't race and who has never built a wheel before. They 'feel' reasonably well tensioned compared to the other bikes I have, but without a tensiometer, I have no way of checking properly. When I 'test by ear' they all sound even and of a similar tension...but who knows!

What next...
This was a pretty interesting experience, and has given me the bug for doing more. Although I like the wheelset I'm not struck on how it looks with the carbon frame I am building up. So these will be put on another project, an older Bianchi which will be stripped and left as 'brushed aluminium' and built up with black coloured components.

For my carbon frame, I want lighter....of course.

I am thinking now of Light Bicycle 35mm deep rims (24h F/ 24h R...or maybe 28h R, 435g), same hubs, for lighness, and Fusion 5 Galaktiks which are 205g as opposed to 250g for the Performance. This time I will build with Sapim Laser spokes to reduce weight, and not the CX-Rays due to cost. I know they might be harder to build/true, but it will add to the learning experience. Then I'm looking at an approximate weight reduction of hopefully 240g with the lighter tyres, spokes and rims.

Why not Tubular, I hear you say. Well, I have considered it, and I might at somepoint, but I'm not sure how I will get on with Tubs as a recreational rider and I'm liking the Tubeless setup at the moment so that's were I'm going for the next build.

(Excuse the crap pics, I am away from home right now and will post better when I get back)
Attachments
Kinlin_front.png
Kinlin XR-22T
Kinlin_rear.png
Kinlin XR-22RT
Bikes:

Road: Project-X Pro Carbon (7.2kg) | Bianchi via Narone (bare metal project)
MTB: Canyon Spectral 6.0 Ex 27.5" | GT Zaskar 26" | Orange Clockwork 26" (Limited Edition green)

Multebear
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 10:11 pm

by Multebear

Sounds like you got yourself some solid well-earned experience.

In my experience, truing wheels is not about getting it completely perfect, it's about knowing when to stop. Besides that I've never seen a wheel, that was completely and 100.00 % perfect true including handbuild by someone better than me or of the shelf wheels.

Regarding tension, if you don't brake spokes, and if the wheels don't flex to the point touching brakepads or stays, then it's fine.

Carbon rims are stiffer than alloy rims. Which is why there's no reason to go 24h/24h spokes, unless it's for discbrake.

by Weenie


User avatar
grahus
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

by grahus

Nope, not for disk brake, rim brakes only at the moment.

I probably did think it would be for the stiffness aspect, and it might look better (in my eyes) having similar amount of spokes on each wheel, Although I want to still build radial front, and 2x rear this next time.
Bikes:

Road: Project-X Pro Carbon (7.2kg) | Bianchi via Narone (bare metal project)
MTB: Canyon Spectral 6.0 Ex 27.5" | GT Zaskar 26" | Orange Clockwork 26" (Limited Edition green)

alcatraz
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

You were lucky that the rims didn't come with angled spoke holes. Incompatible with 2:1. Also that only the DS spokes were too long@2x and not too short.

Good idea to go 3x. You might actually by accident have chosen a superior lacing pattern with 2:1 and 3x/radial. I found the common weenie configuration of 2x/radial + 12/12h stresses the spokes a lot and develops weak spots. I would like to try a 2:1 build myself. :)

User avatar
grahus
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

by grahus

@alcatraz.... I did check about the angled spoke holes before lacing, as I was concious of that being a possible no-no. Luckily for me the rim and hub were compatible.

I did want the asthetic of the 2x on the DS (mainly because I don't believe I am particularly hard on my wheels), and I'm quite glad I was forced to use the 2:1 hub, now that I know its not that hard to build. I'm quite technically minded so getting my head around all the different possible combinations is interesting for me.

And only time will tell how 'robust' the wheelset will be!

For my next build I will look for 24h rear, 12 radial NDS / 12 2x DS....at least that's the plan, but may have to change depending what rims I end up buying.
Bikes:

Road: Project-X Pro Carbon (7.2kg) | Bianchi via Narone (bare metal project)
MTB: Canyon Spectral 6.0 Ex 27.5" | GT Zaskar 26" | Orange Clockwork 26" (Limited Edition green)

Marin
Posts: 2818
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

I built LB 35mm Rims 20/24 laced to Novatec SLs with CN 424 and on the drive flange CN 494, came out @1380g and are plenty stiff for me - 75-80kg, puncheur type.

Pic here:
Image

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grahus
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

by grahus

@Marin...That is a very, very nice looking bike, and you went 1x....how do you find it 1x on the road, difficult to get the correct cadence at times/

Where are these CN 424 / CN 492 spokes from, never heard of them before?

And the rims look good, probably just what I'm after, but I'll put on black tyres.
Bikes:

Road: Project-X Pro Carbon (7.2kg) | Bianchi via Narone (bare metal project)
MTB: Canyon Spectral 6.0 Ex 27.5" | GT Zaskar 26" | Orange Clockwork 26" (Limited Edition green)

Marin
Posts: 2818
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

I'm riding 1x on 5 bikes now, 3 of them road/allroad, and I don't think I'll go 2x again. No issues with finding the right gear.

I got the spokes from good886 on ebay, he's a great guy and a good source for wheel parts: http://stores.ebay.com/SOLE-bicycle

User avatar
grahus
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

by grahus

I have 1x SRAM on my Canyon Spectral, which I really like. So I'm thinking I might go down that route on an aluminuim road frame I'm putting together.
Bikes:

Road: Project-X Pro Carbon (7.2kg) | Bianchi via Narone (bare metal project)
MTB: Canyon Spectral 6.0 Ex 27.5" | GT Zaskar 26" | Orange Clockwork 26" (Limited Edition green)

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

Congrats on your first build! Next you will be doing them for your friends.

User avatar
grahus
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

by grahus

@wheelbuilder...I need to get my 'stable' in order first...

The Zaskar I'll never get rid of, I love that bike, just need to bring it up to top form again (was replaced by the Spectral).
The Clockwork, first MTB buy 20 years ago, and it's a Limited Edition, needs a good overhaul, but still in great condition (might sell this to finance my road bikes).
The Bianchi will be stripped to raw aluminium and probably made into 1x, just for fun.

So I have several projects on the go. Interstingly, the wheels on the Zaskar were handbuild many years ago, nearly 20, by a very well respected wheelbuilder on the North side of Glasgow. They are Mavic X319 (I think) built on Hope disks hubs from that period....wow, what a pair of wheels, totally bombproof, never been out of true, never broke a spoke. That really opened my eyes to how good a properly built set of wheels can be.
Bikes:

Road: Project-X Pro Carbon (7.2kg) | Bianchi via Narone (bare metal project)
MTB: Canyon Spectral 6.0 Ex 27.5" | GT Zaskar 26" | Orange Clockwork 26" (Limited Edition green)

User avatar
WinterRider
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

"Kinlin XR-22RT 24h 450g (asymetric)
Bitex RAR9 24h 191g (2:1, DS 2x, NDS Radial)"

I am curious to your tension balance left to right.. could you have NDS tension higher than DS? Idea behind 2/1 is nearly equalizing tension w conventional rim configuration.

I run two triplets now .. both w Kinlin 200 rims & R13 Powerway's. Mine are 1x outside left/3x DS w all Sapim Lasers & weigh high 1200's. I weigh 180's.

User avatar
grahus
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

by grahus

No idea about the tension balance, I don't have a Tensiometer....

And does it matter if NDS tension is higher? Without 2:1 or asymmetrical rim, one side will be higher than the other anyway? As long as the DS is 'high enough' will I experience any issues?

As far as I have been able to find out using either 2:1, or asymmetrical rim, on its own will never give 100% balance anyway, so 2:1 and asymmetrical together might be closer to giving a better overall balance. As I said at the start, this is my first ever wheel build, so I might be talking rubbish and am always open to to being educated :)
Bikes:

Road: Project-X Pro Carbon (7.2kg) | Bianchi via Narone (bare metal project)
MTB: Canyon Spectral 6.0 Ex 27.5" | GT Zaskar 26" | Orange Clockwork 26" (Limited Edition green)

User avatar
WinterRider
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:46 pm

by WinterRider

grahus wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:47 pm
No idea about the tension balance, I don't have a Tensiometer....

And does it matter if NDS tension is higher? Without 2:1 or asymmetrical rim, one side will be higher than the other anyway? As long as the DS is 'high enough' will I experience any issues?

As far as I have been able to find out using either 2:1, or asymmetrical rim, on its own will never give 100% balance anyway, so 2:1 and asymmetrical together might be closer to giving a better overall balance. As I said at the start, this is my first ever wheel build, so I might be talking rubbish and am always open to to being educated :)
Typically the OSD's I have run go around 8-9% increase NDS tensions over symmetric builds. I do cheat .1" left on them to add more tension. I do not think your hub gives a 100/50% ratio .. something just under that. You might be same tension both sides.. or slightly over NDS.

Practically speaking I don't think there's any issue ...with power into the rear not being max. I read back when NDS higher than DS rear gave an issue under max conditions.. force into the rear per peddling. But if that account is valid I don't know. Posted per the issue as it's a variable to consider when assembling triplet rears.

Some pluck spokes for sound to give a tension comparison between spokes. I've tapped them w a screw driver handle. I use a tension meter... sound works fine though.

Nice first build. Well done.

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F45
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am

by F45

Good first build, good report. I'm also on XR22T 24/28 asym rear. I have a wheelset with Bitex hubs but I like the solid feel of Dura Ace better. So they're on DA.

I also have some LB 35mm on DA hubs, 16/21 with a 2:1 rear. They're nice rims.

by Weenie


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