New wheels day. Lightweight Gipfelsturms

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
KCookie
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by KCookie

Calnago wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 1:08 am
@KCookie: So now that you've listened to it, you don't like it and want to quiet things down? That's ok, but I wouldn't use any kind of "oil". There's no "pawls" in there, just two big serrated plates that mesh with each other. Some grease would be the way to go i would think. I can't imagine any oil softening the noise for any length of time at all. DTS has their special "red" grease but I don't know what's so special about it. Either way, not sure how long the "quieter" sound would hold up given how the system works and you may find yourself having to do that more often than you would like. I have about 6 pairs of Lightweights floating around here right now so perhaps I'll pull one apart, grease it up, and see just how much of a difference it makes.
It's not that I don't like it, I'm just now aware of it, and very curious to see how much of a difference there will be once greased. Think I'll wait for you to have a go to see what grease works best. 😀

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jekyll man
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by jekyll man

Whatever you do, don't pack it with grease (either thick or thin).
They only need a smidge, and remove half of that, or what happens is the 2 gears "hydraulic" apart, losing drive.
Finish Line synthetic is pretty good- it has the properties of savlon ;-)
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by Weenie


sungod
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by sungod

KCookie wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:31 am
It's not that I don't like it, I'm just now aware of it, and very curious to see how much of a difference there will be once greased. Think I'll wait for you to have a go to see what grease works best. 😀
it makes a huge difference

if you have a brand new dt-swiss hub, it will be really quiet, over time it will get louder as grease displaces
if you have a brand new lw wheel, i think they skimp on the grease vs. how much dts put in, so it'll be a little louder to start, it will get louder
if you have a 'dry' hub, it will be VERY loud, maybe the carbon let's the noise out more than an alloy hub

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Calnago
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by Calnago

The carbon definitely increases the sound for sure, but I just always hated the tractor type sound of the star ratchets in my DT hubs when I had them.
What @jekykllman says is interesting about avoiding too much grease. Not the same system at all, but I once packed some Eurus bearings and freehub with SlickHoney and the thing was dead quiet. Trouble was, I actually liked the sound of a Campy freehub and pawls. And not sure how it would have fared in colder weather either. Ended up flushing and using lighter stuff.
I’m quite curious myself now as to just how much you can play with the sound of the freehub in these wheels. I’ll get a chance to find out in the next month or so. And at this point I know I won’t be able to resist the experiment.
Also, what makes (the front hub at least), so uniquely different than a standard DT hub that they require you to send it back for a simple bearing replacement? Or maybe it’s the rear hub... it’s at least one or the other I know that. @Sungod?... you said you’ve done it, why do you think they insist on sending it back to them for this service?
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sungod
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by sungod

vs. a real dts hub the potential for causing damage is getting things wrong when removing/inserting bearings, especially you must get the support right for when tapping things out/pressing in, to avoid putting axial shock/load from the hub into spokes/rim

there are a few posts on ww about the process, i quickly found this one...
viewtopic.php?p=605472#p605403

my current set are out of warranty now, bearings are still ok, but at some point i'll need to decide if i diy or get them serviced - i'm not 100% sure but i think there may be an authorised service provider in london, when the time comes i may ask there before deciding what to do

with the rear hub there's an annular nut that has to be removed, this what transmits the drive forces so it gets driven tight, if i can't get that off then it is time to stop, put back together, and get it done by lw!

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Calnago
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by Calnago

It's been a few months since I said I was going to try to experiment with softening the "tractor sound" that Lightweights make in the freehub. Rather, it's more the sound of the DT ratchet system and Lightweight just happens to use these internals in their hubs. Basically, I just experimented a bit with different amounts of grease in the freehub as I was changing a Campy freehub to Shimano on this wheel.

The internals... the 18tooth ratchet wheels (lower left) is what comes standard in DT ratchet hubs. You can get higher tooth count ratchet wheels... the ones in the lower right are 36tooth which I tried on a friends bike but the sound was, to our ears, worse. Anyway, I'm just cleaning up the 18tooth internals and replacing...
Image

Here's how the freehub sounded before anything was done... pretty typical... (not sure how these videos will come out here... I just took them on an iphone then used Vimeo to host them, much like using flickr to host the stills)... not very adept at vimeo so hope this come through ok...


And here's how I would have liked it to sound... trouble was there was too much grease and the ratchets wouldn't engage quickly, fully and completely... but I liked the softer freewheeling sound...


So, apart it came again, and cleaned up some of the grease and reassembled, forgot to make the video before I put the cassette back on, but the sound is the same. Not as tractor sounding as in the first video, but not as quiet as the second... the final compromise...


That's it. Couldn't really get the sound I was ultimately hoping for, but did manage to "soften" the tractor a bit. Just need to make sure you don't put so much grease in that the ratchets don't engage properly and quickly, and that they disengage immediately when you stop pedaling.
Last edited by Calnago on Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

RyanH
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by RyanH

I find Phil's tenacious oil maintains the sound close to the 2nd video for a good while. Maybe in between 2nd and 3rd after a few weeks.

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dgasmd
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by dgasmd

Anyone has any ideas how to open up the front hubs on these? I had to use a tiny flat screwdriver to pry away the parts on the rear, but no room to do the same with the front.

As far as the sound, mo the ago I took both of my LW rear wheels and cleaned/lubed them. Both went completely silent for weeks. Now they have an ever so soft sound. No missed engagement or slips, so I guessed I got lucky with the amount of grease I used. I used the Park Tool High Performance Grease HPG-1. Seems to have done the job.

Now, if I could do the same to the front ones.....

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@dgasmd, good to know that if I wanted to I might be able to go back in and get it a bit softer sounding. But after the first go, things were just sticking and when in the stand it definitely wasn't right, possibly unsafe even, but sure sounded nice. Might have been the cold temps here right now as well. Or the thick red grease that they like you to use. So, I took quite a bit of grease out for the final version, and I'm not going back in at this point. It's done. Ha.

I haven't pulled the front hubs apart but I know Lightweight insists you send them in for service. I think the reason for that is that on some models they've used retaining compound on the end caps, so it's going to take a bit more force to "unseat" them. Those carbon flanges are very fragile, so everything needs to be quite supported, so Lightweight would rather err on the safe side and have people send them in. But if I need to service one, I'm not sending it in. I have all the drifts, punches etc., that come with the DT Swiss Service Tool kit. I think the main thing would be, if you were going to punch out the end caps, to make absolutely certain those flanges are fully supporte, perhaps making a wooden "mold" of sorts that would cradle and support everything around the endcaps. If I ever do one I'll let you know. Hmmm... there it is... sitting right in front of me... do I dare.... just for fun. Lol.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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dgasmd
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by dgasmd

Calnago wrote:@dgasmd,

If I ever do one I'll let you know. Hmmm... there it is... sitting right in front of me... do I dare.... just for fun. Lol.
Do it
do it
do it......

kode54
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by kode54

@Calnago,

i've been using the NFS (NixFrixShun) grease instead of the DT Swiss grease. softens the sound and seems to last much longer than the DTS grease.
- AX Lightness Vial EVO D + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee Altum + DA9150 + Enve SES 4.5 carbon hubs
- Parlee ESX + DA9150 + THM SRM PM + Enve SES 6.7 CK hubs
- Guru Praemio R Titanium + DA9150 + Enve 3.4 CK hubs

glepore
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by glepore

Also, keep in mind that they use shims on the fronts for bearing preload.
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KCookie
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by KCookie

It's about time you got round to greasing them colnago. Lol. . Now I know what to do if needed, but all my Lightweights have become redundant since I bought the AXs.

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dgasmd
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by dgasmd

KCookie wrote:but all my Lightweights have become redundant since I bought the AXs.
Send them my way and I’ll fix that problem for youImageImageImageImage

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

Well, after hearing about @dgasmd's quiet Lightweights, I just couldn't leave it as is, so I took it apart one more time, added a bit more grease and now I think it's pretty good. If anything, there may be a tad too much still in there, but I'm thinking with a few rides it will distribute nicely and any current friction in the freehub from excessive grease will be gone. If not, then just one more time and I'll nail it. It's kind of a trial and error process. Anwyay, here's the final result, at least for now...



Oh, and @dbasmd, I just saw your "Do it! Do it! Do it!" taunt. Lol, you know I want to. I inspected it as best I could and would just like to confirm how everything is put together, it's really simple, but I'd like to confirm which parts are held in with retaining compound etc. And yes about being aware of the shims. I suspect they use them to dial in each and every front wheel preload due to the difficulty in manufacturing the carbon shell to consistently fine tolerances, similar to a carbon BB shell. I just think it's really silly that you have to send a front wheel in for such a simple service as bearing replacement. You're without a wheel for however long they have it and the shipping probably costs as much as a couple new bearings, maybe more.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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