Rebuild dura-ace 9000 hub from complete shimano wheel

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Skunkworks
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by Skunkworks

Nice days! weight-weenies!

I have a question about dura-ace 9000 hub.

Dura-ace 9000 line up has two kinds of hubs.

One is for Shimano built complete wheels, and the other one is for custom wheels.

This is dura-ace 9000 hubs for custom wheels.
Dura-Ace-9000-hubs.jpg
and this is dura-ace 9000 hub for the shimano complete wheel, 9000-c35-tu.
let's say these hubs as complete hubs.
Dura-Ace-9000-C75-Tubular-Wheelset-Rear-Hub.jpg
I have used c35-tu for years.
I know that shimano's complete hub is durable and has good performance.
Therefore, I want to build a wheel with these 9000-c35-tu complete hubs.

However, shimano's complete wheels seem to use their own custom shaped straight pull spokes.
33122.jpg
I guess that shimano may use their own custom shaped nipples for their complete wheels.

I don't know whether typical straight pull spokes, such as DT's or sapim's spokes, is compatible with the complete hubs.

So... my question is...
Is there anyone who builds a wheel with custom carbon rims and dura-ace 9000 hubs for shimano's complete wheel?
Or, is there any third party custom spokes for these complete hubs?


Thank you and have nice ride guys!
Last edited by Skunkworks on Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

If you have the complete Shimano wheel then you can measure the spoke length and use spokecalc spreadsheet to backward calculate the fractional crossing you need for the Ds rear spokes.

Then using that crossing number you can then work out the correct length. You cannot just use the normal triplet calculation method for straight pull hubs or any sp hub for that matter.

Shimano wheel s use the CX sprint spoke I think. It's not special and a CX ray should fit fine.

by Weenie


euph
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by euph

I have been interested in this idea since I saw a pair of hubs going on eBay. Have a go as I am sure some of the knowledgeable readers on here can help along the way.

Svetty
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by Svetty

This thread - in varying guises - is a perennial and has been since the original DA wheels going back to the 7800 series. The hassle of securing light enough rims with 16 holes (for the front), compatible straight-pull spokes, and spoke calculation issues generally puts people off. I've often wondered (aloud and on this forum) whether a business case could be made and an enterprising wheel-builder offer a 'Shimano DA factory wheel rebuid service'. The sheer number of factory DA hubs out there should mean the potential market is considerable.

Multebear
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by Multebear

Any serious wheelbuilder would be able to perform the task of rebuilding a set of C35's with new rims, if you hand over the original C35 wheels. The proces as bm0p700f describes would involve calculating backwards in order to get the correct spokelength.

That said, and even though I've praised the DA hubs on several previous occasions (own a set of wheels with 9000 hubs myself), I'm not quite that enthusiastic anymore. With cup and cone bearings, the only replacable parts are the ball bearings. If something should happen to the cup, the hub is game over. No way of replacing the cup. Whereas if using hubs with cartridge bearings, bearings are replaceable and reasonably priced as well. I've come to the conlusion regarding my own wheel wardrobe, that I'm not gonna build more wheels with cup and cone bearing hubs. Except maybe Shimano 105, because they are very affordable and if something happens, I'll replace the whole hub.

DamonRinard
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by DamonRinard

Those spoke heads look different, flattened on two sides.

Reminds me of the similar spokes we made for some Bontrager wheels. We flattened the heads on straight pull spokes to keep the blades lined up. We just smashed the prototype spokes in a vice. They passed all lab testing, then DT Swiss made them in production, flattening straight pull spoke heads, but of course in a precise production machine.

The hub holes had matching grooves to hold the spoke's rotational position.
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Well if Damon is right then that kills the idea (I had not noticed the flatened head it obvious once pointed out).

DamonRinard
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by DamonRinard

Why not flatten your own spoke heads?
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Various people have asked me about this. Buy the time you have bought carbon rims that are light enough the cost of the re built wheel onto lets just not as fresh as they once were DA hub is somewhat prohibitive. Who is going to drop £500 or whatever it costs on wheels with old hubs.

It is a dead end commercially, it always was even if it is possible. It is something for the tinker in there shed. So tinker away it will only cost £300 to £400 in parts depending on the rims.

DamonRinard
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by DamonRinard

Right, I don't mean as a business. But as an individual who build their own wheels, flattening a couple dozen spoke heads should be a fun part of a unique rebuild.
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

Skunkworks
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by Skunkworks

Thanks, guys!

Here is a close photo of front hub and head of spokes from my 9000-c35-tu wheel.
(please click to enlarge the photo :) )
20180327_005300.jpg
As DamonRinard said, the Shimano's factory spoke(?!) has a different shape of head, comparing to DT's and Sapim's straight pull spokes.

My ultimate goal is to rebuild this factory DA 9000 hub with a custom carbon rim, not a new shimano's 9000-C35 rim.

How about machining the DA hub itself for typical round shaped spokes?
or adding washers or something to fit typical round shaped spokes into the groves of the hub?
( Yeah, even I wrote, it seems obsession. but I just wonder there is any method to recycle the hub which I really like. :roll: )

DamonRinard
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by DamonRinard

Good photo of a difficult view! To me, it shows a handy tinkerer can simply flatten the heads of normal straight pull spokes.
Then you have free choice: any rim you like, any ERD, just buy the right spoke lengths & flatten the heads.

For example, it looks like the flattening isn't quite 2 mm across (the flats aren't quite even with the spoke diameter). Possibly it's around 3 mm or so. I would measuring to confirm, then maybe tape two 3 mm allen keys (or some other hard things which are the right thickness) in my vice and flatten each spoke head, with the allen keys functioning as a repeatable spacer or tooling stop.

If you already have a hub with some empty spoke holes, you could confirm this will work with just one or two flattened spokes. I could be wrong, but it's easy to find out...
Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager, Road Bikes
Cycling Sports Group, Cannondale
Ex-Kestrel, ex-Velomax, ex-Trek, ex-Cervelo

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Or get a rim with matching ERD, it is probably around 572mm

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

Multebear wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:05 pm
That said, and even though I've praised the DA hubs on several previous occasions (own a set of wheels with 9000 hubs myself), I'm not quite that enthusiastic anymore. With cup and cone bearings, the only replacable parts are the ball bearings. If something should happen to the cup, the hub is game over. No way of replacing the cup. Whereas if using hubs with cartridge bearings, bearings are replaceable and reasonably priced as well. I've come to the conlusion regarding my own wheel wardrobe, that I'm not gonna build more wheels with cup and cone bearing hubs. Except maybe Shimano 105, because they are very affordable and if something happens, I'll replace the whole hub.
This is where I'm at as well. I have some Ultegra WH-6700/6800 wheels that I've had a hell of a time trying to find replacement cones for. Just regular hubs for custom wheels, not a problem, as as Multebear said, with something like a 105, you can replace the hub for not much more than a set of cones and balls. I'd be really torn on how much I'd invest into building a wheel from hubs that use propietary spokes, cones, etc. unless I already had a stock of replacement parts on hand.

That being said, it does sound like a fun project and I'll admit to kicking arround the idea of replacing the rims on a pair of hubs from the Ultegra rims in the past.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
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jekyll man
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by jekyll man

IrrelevantD wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:25 pm
Multebear wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:05 pm
That said, and even though I've praised the DA hubs on several previous occasions (own a set of wheels with 9000 hubs myself), I'm not quite that enthusiastic anymore. With cup and cone bearings, the only replacable parts are the ball bearings. If something should happen to the cup, the hub is game over. No way of replacing the cup. Whereas if using hubs with cartridge bearings, bearings are replaceable and reasonably priced as well. I've come to the conlusion regarding my own wheel wardrobe, that I'm not gonna build more wheels with cup and cone bearing hubs. Except maybe Shimano 105, because they are very affordable and if something happens, I'll replace the whole hub.
This is where I'm at as well. I have some Ultegra WH-6700/6800 wheels that I've had a hell of a time trying to find replacement cones for. Just regular hubs for custom wheels, not a problem, as as Multebear said, with something like a 105, you can replace the hub for not much more than a set of cones and balls. I'd be really torn on how much I'd invest into building a wheel from hubs that use propietary spokes, cones, etc. unless I already had a stock of replacement parts on hand.

That being said, it does sound like a fun project and I'll admit to kicking arround the idea of replacing the rims on a pair of hubs from the Ultegra rims in the past.
It's not gameover at all.
If you spend time looking through the shimano spares lists (madison uk was good), then you can normally find what is cross compatible. I renovated some RS80's a while back, by buying a set of i think they were RS10's, and cannibalizing the innards to put in the 80s.
I then rebuilt the rough bearings back into the RS10's and they got used as a winter set which i didnt care about.
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