Opinions on DT R460 vs RR411

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:07 am
I never wanted to argue. I really dont know why I bothered posting. Anyway i hope OP you have made a choice whatever it is.
I do appreciate your input. It does seem like someone came in here already mad at you over something that happened previously. In the words of Ron Burgondy, “that escalated quickly”.

Anyway, I’m thinking I’m probably going to go with 24h 460s front and back. From what I sketched out, I should be able to do a mix of 16x 1-cross and 8 radial (crows foot) in front, and 16x 3-cross (DS) and 8 radial (NDS) and make it work. Should be a fun little project.
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istigatrice
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by istigatrice

I've got no idea if the pattern will work, but if it does I think you'd want a fialr stiff rim with only 8 radial NDS spokes. If you're going to get different spokes anyway why not consider the DT RR511 or the 31mm deep Kinlin rim.
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by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I have built the R460 with 24H drilling and boring 2x lacing. They were nice and stiff. Only did one set though but I did not think yikes what have I done here. You must have 32H hubs. Be aware that with 16:1 lacing rear you will have the NDS spoke tension higher than the DS. While some wheel manufacturers are doing this I do wonder why.

Also 16 spokes 1x and 8 radial front is going going to have lower torsional stiffness than boring 2x lacing and since the majority of the braking load is on the front wheel perhaps conventional lacing is better for the long term. If you dont brake then it does not matter.

If you have 32H hubs then why not 32H rims and light spokes as that could come out a similar weight to R460 and 24h sapim race or DT comps which would be the obvious choice for to stiffen the wheel up.

The OP rejected more expensive rim earier due to the cost.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:57 am
I have built the R460 with 24H drilling and boring 2x lacing. They were nice and stiff. Only did one set though but I did not think yikes what have I done here. You must have 32H hubs. Be aware that with 16:1 lacing rear you will have the NDS spoke tension higher than the DS. While some wheel manufacturers are doing this I do wonder why.

Also 16 spokes 1x and 8 radial front is going going to have lower torsional stiffness than boring 2x lacing and since the majority of the braking load is on the front wheel perhaps conventional lacing is better for the long term. If you dont brake then it does not matter.

If you have 32H hubs then why not 32H rims and light spokes as that could come out a similar weight to R460 and 24h sapim race or DT comps which would be the obvious choice for to stiffen the wheel up.

The OP rejected more expensive rim earier due to the cost.
I kinda just wanted to do something different. I have two other wheels that are 24h with 3x drive side, 1/2 as many radial NDS and they are both slightly higher tension on the DS. They are pretty close in tension, much closer to each other than 3x both sides, but still higher on the DS. That being said, I am re-considering going with 32 on the rear but still keeping with the 3x drive, radial NDS.

As for the front, with the exception of the Open Pro's I'm replacing, every front wheel I actually use is radial lacing, none have more than 20 spokes, and I've never had an issue with braking (aside from canti's have less power than calipers). I considered doing 32 radial, but I always thought high spoke count radial lacing looked kinda silly. 24 was sort of a compomise. Save about $10-15 on spokes, save a little weight. Yea, crows foot is going to be a bit of a pain due to different sized spokes, but it's going to be easier to calculate lengths than trying to do a 2x or 3x with a 32h hub and a 24h rim. If I had a spoke threader, it'd be a completely different situation. :?

@istigatrice I had considered the RR511, but as bm0p700f mentioned, I'm trying to keep cost down. This is a shoestring budget rebuild of an old Open Pro wheelset to make it tubeless. I just don't want to drop the extra $80 for the 511, otherwise that'd be my first choice. Kinlins apear to be a little hard to find in the US. For the most part, the ones I am able to find that are tubeless are either sold out in the hole count that I need, or are above budget.

{edit}. and as soon as I say that... I find someplace that has XR-22Ts for $10 less than the RR411s I've been looking at. We'll see where this goes when I add spokes.
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I got confused. your doing a rim brake build. I for a moment thought you were on about a disc brake wheelset sorry! It is with a disc brake hub you would end up with funny tension balance on the rear and my comments about the front refer to disc brakes too. as disc brake hubs have 20mm/34mm flange to centre spacing for the rear normally. For the tension to be less on the non drive side with triplet lacing the NDS to centre of hub spacing needs to be greater than twice the DS to centre of hub spacing.
For rim brake the only complication with the lacing you want to is getting the spoke lengths right. For rim brakes there is no issue with radial lacing on a front wheel.

For the rear 2:1 will work and there is thread on here to help you get the spoke length right its 48 spoke done 5x - the correction factor.

BHS has the kinlins and the advantage of the kinlin is the 3mm ofset rear rim which balance out the tensions pretty well meaning triplet is not really needed.

On a related note I did some sums a few back and for triplet lacing the nds flange needs to be about ~44mm from centre of hub (assuming 17mm DS to centre of hub) for it to be as stiff as 1:1 lacing with a 17/37mm spaced rear hub.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

bm0p700f wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:12 pm
I got confused. your doing a rim brake build. I for a moment thought you were on about a disc brake wheelset sorry! It is with a disc brake hub you would end up with funny tension balance on the rear and my comments about the front refer to disc brakes too. as disc brake hubs have 20mm/34mm flange to centre spacing for the rear normally. For the tension to be less on the non drive side with triplet lacing the NDS to centre of hub spacing needs to be greater than twice the DS to centre of hub spacing.
For rim brake the only complication with the lacing you want to is getting the spoke lengths right. For rim brakes there is no issue with radial lacing on a front wheel.

For the rear 2:1 will work and there is thread on here to help you get the spoke length right its 48 spoke done 5x - the correction factor.

BHS has the kinlins and the advantage of the kinlin is the 3mm ofset rear rim which balance out the tensions pretty well meaning triplet is not really needed.

On a related note I did some sums a few back and for triplet lacing the nds flange needs to be about ~44mm from centre of hub (assuming 17mm DS to centre of hub) for it to be as stiff as 1:1 lacing with a 17/37mm spaced rear hub.
I floated the same question here over at BikeForums and someone brought up the very valid point that the hub flange may not be suitable for radial. I did a lot of digging for specs on the hubs that Shimano has approved for radial lacing, and while I'm still going to go with 2:1, I'm going to do a 1-cross on the NDS. I already pulled the trigger on rims and spokes, went with the XR-22Ts, Sapim Race for the rear, Laser for the front. Fair Wheel Bikes has the rims for $35/ea (USD), which put me at $159 shipped for spokes, rims, and some colored Sapim securelock nipples.

At this point, my only concern is if the flange on the front hub is sufficent for the 8 radial spokes in the crows feet (4 per side). I'm going to check the model number when I get home and see if it's approved for radial, if not I can always pick up another Tiagra or 105 front hub for $20-30 and still be under my original budget.

Thanks for the providing thoughts and ideas. I think this might just turn out OK.
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istigatrice
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by istigatrice

Ah yes, I think I've missed the point about cost twice now!

Sounds like a reasonable build if radial lacing is ok for your hubs.
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

32H hubs in general are not approved for radial as the holes are too close together. While it of course can be done fatigue might get the better of them in time then again it may not. If the hub is a cheap one then it is worse the risk.

If doing 2:1 dont do 1x on the NDS rear. radial is better. There will be to much cross over the hub with 1x and that is more of a risk than radial is. You will be able to keep the tension lower with triplet 1000N so that will help preserve the flange.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:55 pm
32H hubs in general are not approved for radial as the holes are too close together. While it of course can be done fatigue might get the better of them in time then again it may not. If the hub is a cheap one then it is worse the risk.

If doing 2:1 dont do 1x on the NDS rear. radial is better. There will be to much cross over the hub with 1x and that is more of a risk than radial is. You will be able to keep the tension lower with triplet 1000N so that will help preserve the flange.
Missed what you were saying about the 1x before ordering, but it’s a current gen Tiagra level FH, so I could probably replace it cheap if the worst happens. I’ll keep any eye on it. Regarding the spoke tension, everything I’ve seen has said about 120kgf~1200n, but that has all been from forums. Do you know what the official specs from Kinlin are? I have them built up at about 110kgf within 10% variance based on what I’ve seen. NDS is about 5-10% lower.

Also, when I mounted the tires, front was pretty well sealed with just tape but the rear had a very fast leak through the brake track at the joint by the pinning. Stan’s seems to have sealed it up as far as I can tell, but I haven’t actually had a chance to ride it yet. Should I be worried about the rim integrity at the joint. All of my other tubeless rims are welded, so this is a first for me.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

MikeD
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by MikeD

I recently built up a set of 32 spoke wheels with the DT R460. They are nice quality rims at a great price but I do not like the fact that they have no humps in the rim bed to hold tubeless tire beads in place. If you depressurize the tire, the tire beads pop into the rim well. They are also not welded.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Kinlins can hold 1200n but triplet with a tiagra hub with the ds at 1200n and the nds laced radial will result in 1100n on that side. Since radial place higher loads on the flange this could prove too much. 1000n for this kind of wheel will be enough. Adding more tension won't do anything except stress the flanges more.

When I do triple it's with s hub specifically made for triplet and the tension balance is around 70%

In fact to be bling you are wasting your time building a tiagra hub as a triplet wheel. A normal 24spoke wheel would be stiffer and more reliable.

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