Opinions on DT R460 vs RR411

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

I have an old OpenPro wheelset that I’m looking to rebuild with a tubeless rim. Looking at some of the spoke length calculators, it’s looks like I could probably get away with doing a straight rim swap with the DT RR411 and keep the spokes I have (about 1mm difference), or get a pair of R460s and replace all but about 16 spokes for arround the same price.

My question here is does anyone have any experience with both of these rims and can offer any insight as to what the difference is aside from rim height and about 10g per rim in weight. The 411 rim looks to be about twice the cost, just not sure why and if it’s worth the extra $. Build will be 32 spoke 3-cross laced to Shimano hubs and primarily used on my CX/Gravel bike.
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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

The r460 is heavier and stiff. The rr411 is not that light and not stiff.

The new open pro is lighter and stiffer than the rr411. Even the asymmetric rear for the rr411 does not save it. It is simply a rim to avoid.

The kinlin xr22t or the Mavic open pro UST rims have better tubeless comparability and are stiffer/ better rims so pick one of these instead.

by Weenie


Multebear
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by Multebear

I only know the 460. But I have two wheelsets with them, since I find them very good. Great value for money, and all the modern treats, like wide, aero and very easy to build with.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

The problem with the. R460 is the
Kinlin is lighter and builds just as easily as has an asymmetric option.

The r460 may be a bit stiffer though.

istigatrice
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by istigatrice

Everyone says that the 411 isn't that stiff but I haven't had any issues with my pair. The quality of the rim is quite high, almost perfectly round out of the box. The rim hook looks to be slightly shallower than the 460 (should make mounting tyres easier). I'm not convinced that the 460 will be as round but happy to be corrected on that.

That said if I had the choice of of either a 411 rim and using old spokes or a 460 rim and new spokes I'd take the 460 rim and new spokes, just in case the spokes were approaching the end of their fatigue life. (Note I'm not an engineer so I'm not sure if that precise statement made sense; I mean that a new rim with new spokes should be stronger than a (nicer) new rim with old spokes).

Also AFAIK the rr411 rim is only available in the 32 drilling for an asymmetric rim. So the max number of spokes you can use for the front is 28h.
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

stormur
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by stormur

bm0p700f wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:28 pm
The r460 is heavier and stiff. The rr411 is not that light and not stiff.

The new open pro is lighter and stiffer than the rr411. Even the asymmetric rear for the rr411 does not save it. It is simply a rim to avoid.

The kinlin xr22t or the Mavic open pro UST rims have better tubeless comparability and are stiffer/ better rims so pick one of these instead.
Explain then how come that R411 carry my 85kg butt over anything already 1 year without issues ?? / 28 rear 24 front, both asymmetric (DB) / . It's fully tubeless, against your "opinion". I doubt you had it in hands nor build a wheelset with it. Otherwise you would avoid expressing such BS ( it is obvious BS for people who have or work with DT 411 ).
... wait... what you're selling ? Mavics and kinlins ? Well.... now it's clear wherefrom your "opinions" come :mrgreen: you do not have even "opinion" -> you're SELLING .



to OP : I build few sets on 411. One set I use perosnally for over a year. Any road, light cross. No issues whatsoever, time shows zero problems with quality or trueness ( never need to re true it ).
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

Multebear
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by Multebear

Image

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Just because the rim carries you does not mean it carries everyone. Also if the is another lighter but stiffer rim why would you kit use that. I explain below why rim stiffness is important and key in determining spoke life.

There are alot if rims on the market. Some are better than others. The Mavic rim is lighter and stiffer. The spoke nipples area is much thicker although the DT rim need washers which does help avoid the crack but The RR411 does crack. The mavic rim is also cheaper.
The kinlin is 10g heavier and alot cheaper than both without any downsides.

I sold the Dt rim for a while and still list them (but the stock is dead I dont sell them) so I am not sure what you are getting at. I also build with all of them well not with the DT RR411 anymore because to get wheels as laterally stiff as I do with the other rims thicker spokes are needed. I have built a fair few of them and I was never truly happy with the resulting wheels but the customers were and none has failed but that might be luck. I had to do a few disc brake wheels with these rims and dynamo hubs and the lack of lateral stiffness really shows here, ( there was a sp that used to be asymmetric ) as the resulting 32 spoke wheel build with sapim race spokes had alot if lateral flex. It did not take much side load (on a bench) to get the rim to visibly flex. Having built the same wheels with the same hubs and spokes with the DT Swiss RR411 rim and disc brake wheel Mavic OP and Kinlin XR22T I can say both rims (Kinlin and Mavic) are alot stiffer (latterly). Radial flex cant be easily assessed but the profile of the DT RR411 rim is not encouraging here.
Here is a paper http://opus.bath.ac.uk/1418/1/Vogwell_P ... _4_563.pdf
I draw your attention to formula 37 and 38. rims that are not radially stiff end up which much lower radial rim stiffness. As steel spokes are alot stiffer than an aluminium rim the radial wheel stiffness tends to the radial rim stiffness (see table at the end of the paper).
Therefore long term spoke life is going to be compromised. While it might work for many riders, some may suffer spoke failures and that to me is simply not tenable. So if there is a stiffer shallow rim on offer I will use that instead.

Just my experience if all of them. I have stock of the Dt rims so I should be saying they are great but instead I am telling you how I see it.

So the comments are baseless care to take them back.

The R460 does have roundness issues sometimes but not enough to be a problem when riding but trying to get a round evenly tensioned wheel with one can be challanging. Normally I have had to settle for roundness in 0.6mm to 0.8mm range so spoke tension variation is not too large so I try to avoid this rim where i can but has plus points too.

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

Thanks for all the responses. I wasn’t aware I was going to start a rim war. Please allow me to put some things to rest....
New Open Pro is not an option as it’s 10mm deeper than the old one, which means I’d be replacing all the spokes. From what I’ve seen, Kinlin might be in the same boat (most are from Europe, might be a limiting factor).

This is a budget rebuild of a lightly used wheelset that will be a 3rd set for my CX bike. Something to fill the gap between my 31c knobbies and my 38c Gravel King SKs. The idea is to make the wheelset tubeless for as little cash out of pocket as possible and put something arround a 32 on it that rolls well on pavement, but can still handle some light gravel and dirt roads.

RR411’s are about $80-90ea and I could keep my spokes, or R460s are about $45ea and I buy 48 spokes. Either way, I’m out about $160. Just trying to get an idea of which way to go. I’m open to other options, but $100 rims AND replacing 64 spokes is not one of them.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

stormur
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by stormur

1st thing : DT 411 weight is about same as HED C2....and Kinlin . Kinlin is sleeved, not welded, so different league completely. Cheapest ( not best ) rims are just sleeved... And Kinlin at shop of yours cost about same as I have to pay for DT411 in Germany / incl shipping /.

Tubeless : capable, ready or TUBELESS? Up to what pressure ?? It's BIG difference in between. Where's Kinlin on this scale ?

2nd : "stiffness" . To have a statement about (lack) of it, you must measure deflection at certain force applied to rim ( same test for other wheels too, built naturally on exactly same other components, same spoke tension ) : share the numbers please. If you don't have any, is your opinion based on facts or on "feeling" ? Without numbers... we already have an answer :)

...oops ; you can't apply same tension to mavic -tension limit is lower. Same tubeless tire pressure limit for given tire size is lower for Mavic than DT. That changes hubs/ spokes choice, doesn't it ?

3rd. 411 crack : images. A lot of it. Without image it didn't happened. I can send you plenty of cracked Mavic rims images- cracked Mavic is becoming kind of standrard, not exeption, isn't it ? "Luck" is when your (modern)Mavic rim didn't fail within a year :mrgreen: . Eyelets doesn't help Mavic here.. ( some call eyelets "battery" ... for a reason- you you complain about washers ??? )

Last : Components choice for given build &wheelbuilder skills : that you're "good" we know... from you only.

Reading your content... leads me to conclusion that you're not so fabulous as you used to think about yourself.

Your claims to take your "knowledge" as undeniable are ( at least ) unjustified.


There's plenty of nice rims to build very good wheelset. Is 411 one of them ? For now.. yes( lets consider just and only just 1 year of personal usage skipping all other builds ) - more time will show is it definite answer, or I was wrong. But till now, these rims do not suffer from ANY issues you mentioned. Not in smallest degree.

Against your "knowledge", there is world beyond Kinlin ;) ( or should I write "Borg" ? :mrgreen: )

PS : "Just because the rim carries you does not mean it carries everyone" ... ( what a shitty - and obvious- statement :) ) - of course not - my 160kg neighbour would be best confirmation of your theory :mrgreen:
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I was not trying to start a rim war. I just made a short intake post about rim choices which I felt i should expand on given a response.

The rr411 has an erd of 601mm with the sqourx nipples the open pro has an erd of 604rmm. If you use brass nipples (standard DT Swiss) the erd is around 597mm so in neither case can you reuse your spokes.

The erd of the open pro UST is 593mm ( Mavic state 589mm but that is the inner rim diameter not strictly the erd) and the kinlin xr22t is 596mm. The r460 rim has an erd of 596mm.

The r460 or the kinlin and new spokes are your cheapest options.

Sme sleeved joined rims are fine stormur. Welded rims are fine too. So long as it joined properly then all is well. You obviously don't like me. I have no idea why you are being a troll to me and trying to make this personal stormur.


Op if you are ruling out the Mavic on cost that leaves the kinlin or the r460 and choice there is on weight, internal width and weather having an asymmetric rear is important to you or not. You could pick either rim and be happy.

stormur
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by stormur

Maybe sleeve joined rims are fine ( for you ) , but welded rims are better. Also rims taking higher tension are far better than those with low limit.
Same way "tubeless" is better than "tubless ready" .. those are better than "tubeless convertible". Tubeless rim with higher air pressure limit is better than this with lower one. Naturally are eyeletted excellent rims. Mavic used to manufacture them while ago ( but not anymore ). Ambrosio is 2nd brand which came to mind, DT Swiss 3rd.


EOT 4me. NFA. WR.
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

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IrrelevantD
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by IrrelevantD

Well... now that I have everyone's feathers properly ruffled by starting such a highly contreversial toppic... time to step this up a notch.

As previously mentioned... 32h hubs.
I'm contemplating getting 24h rims. My thinking is crows foot front, omitting every 4th spoke, 2:1 rear with 3-cross drive side, radial non-drive.

Any issues I should forsee leaving open holes in the hub? I'm looking for stories of exploding wheels and firy death here people, because I know they're out there and they're comming given the tone that's been set in this thread.

Oh, and to answer some questions.... tubeless vs. tubeless ready... really doesn't matter to me and pressure will be low for a road rim.


---- everything below here is pretty pointless and serves no actual purpose to my original post... you've been warned. ------

I currently have 6 sets of wheels (8 if you count my wife's bikes), 4 are tubeless, 3 of those require tape. I will say that the full tubeless Shimano wheels are the biggest pain in the ass to get tires on since I quit using Stan's cross strips on the Open Pros. If you want to argue amongst yourselves about the merrits of full tubeless and TR, please continue, I'll get popcorn, but it's not really addressing any of my questions or issues. As for pressure... none of my wheels, even road specific, get more than 95psi. Wheels I have for my cross bike don't see more than about 50-55psi. I can't imagine these would ever see more than 70, and that's only if I got a wild hair and put 28s on them. I don't think there's really much merrit in that argument here either, but hey, again... if you want to argue it, I've got popcorn handy.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

Multebear
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by Multebear

stormur; please stop....

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

I never wanted to argue. I really dont know why I bothered posting. Anyway i hope OP you have made a choice whatever it is.

by Weenie


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