ENVE SES VS ZIPP VS HED + PowerTap
Moderator: robbosmans
On Durability... I’ve had so many wheelset swapping back and forth the most I ever put on a set was about 5k miles on my Enve 3.4s. I might not be the best person for long term test answers. I have however smacked plenty of potholes and large rocks on all rims and the worst was a flat. I don’t think any of them are that fragile.
Braking... old smooth Enve are terrible in the wet.. simply scary. New textured tracks are pretty good in the wet. Zipp and Enve are both fine in the dry. I slug up Mt Diablo in CA enough to trust my enves going down. My buddy has zipp nsw on his tarmac.. I think new enves brake marginally better then zipp.
Braking... old smooth Enve are terrible in the wet.. simply scary. New textured tracks are pretty good in the wet. Zipp and Enve are both fine in the dry. I slug up Mt Diablo in CA enough to trust my enves going down. My buddy has zipp nsw on his tarmac.. I think new enves brake marginally better then zipp.
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Thanks, I'm in CA too. I once did Mt Hamilton (which is a very gentle climb around 4-5%) with my friend who has a pair of off-brand carbon wheels and he had to stop every 5-10 mins on the descent to cool down the rims, also when he applied brakes there is a loud high pitched sound. My alloy rims worked fine with 0 issues for the same descent. From what I heard I think the ENVEs and Zipps are arguably the best carbon wheels in terms of braking and the HEDs and Dura Aces is kinda of like an Alloy wheel. Based on your experience, do you think Zipp/ENVE wheels brakes equally good as those alloy/allycarbon wheels?spdntrxi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:39 pmOn Durability... I’ve had so many wheelset swapping back and forth the most I ever put on a set was about 5k miles on my Enve 3.4s. I might not be the best person for long term test answers. I have however smacked plenty of potholes and large rocks on all rims and the worst was a flat. I don’t think any of them are that fragile.
Braking... old smooth Enve are terrible in the wet.. simply scary. New textured tracks are pretty good in the wet. Zipp and Enve are both fine in the dry. I slug up Mt Diablo in CA enough to trust my enves going down. My buddy has zipp nsw on his tarmac.. I think new enves brake marginally better then zipp.
I'm perfectly happy with Enve wheels .. I've done Mt Hamilton as well and didn't find it too bad. Definately not stop worthy. The newer enve rims will make noise no doubt... proper toe-in will help but not totally eliminate. Honestly it's been 2 years+ since I've road the alloys on demanding descents.. Levi's GF. I feel confident enough on CC.. but I no longer bomb descents either, maybe if I had closed roads I would be different, but I've chicken out at my age.
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404s are big boy wheels. Unless you're used to riding deep carbon and in the wind, I'd advise looking at the 303s instead. I've never had a wheel as scary to descend on as a 404. Everything else about them was good, they were very smooth and felt good sprinting.
Enve brake track is really good with the right brakes. I couldn't get them to stop worth shit with eeBrakes. The brake feel is also a little different from other carbon rims as there is no grabbiness. With that being said, I sold all of my Enve because I didn't like how they handled going straight down. My friend's theory is that how the air is redirect, it reduces are pressure on the wheel for side to side movement so turning is very free which also leads to unwanted steering input while descending. We're talking micro movements but it's not exactly comforting going 40+ and the bike to not feel rock stable like Boras or Mavic.
Of the 14 wheels I've had over the past year, the ones I'd buy again are:
Bora 35s
Lightweights
Maybe CCUs
Enve brake track is really good with the right brakes. I couldn't get them to stop worth shit with eeBrakes. The brake feel is also a little different from other carbon rims as there is no grabbiness. With that being said, I sold all of my Enve because I didn't like how they handled going straight down. My friend's theory is that how the air is redirect, it reduces are pressure on the wheel for side to side movement so turning is very free which also leads to unwanted steering input while descending. We're talking micro movements but it's not exactly comforting going 40+ and the bike to not feel rock stable like Boras or Mavic.
Of the 14 wheels I've had over the past year, the ones I'd buy again are:
Bora 35s
Lightweights
Maybe CCUs
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Thanks, by Mavic you mean the Cosmic Pro Carbon SLs right? They seem very price competitive msrp at 1700usd almost half of the enves and bora ultras. What is the reason you did not include them in the "ones I'd buy again are" list below?RyanH wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:17 pm404s are big boy wheels. Unless you're used to riding deep carbon and in the wind, I'd advise looking at the 303s instead. I've never had a wheel as scary to descend on as a 404. Everything else about them was good, they were very smooth and felt good sprinting.
Enve brake track is really good with the right brakes. I couldn't get them to stop worth shit with eeBrakes. The brake feel is also a little different from other carbon rims as there is no grabbiness. With that being said, I sold all of my Enve because I didn't like how they handled going straight down. My friend's theory is that how the air is redirect, it reduces are pressure on the wheel for side to side movement so turning is very free which also leads to unwanted steering input while descending. We're talking micro movements but it's not exactly comforting going 40+ and the bike to not feel rock stable like Boras or Mavic.
Of the 14 wheels I've had over the past year, the ones I'd buy again are:
Bora 35s
Lightweights
Maybe CCUs
EDIT (I see, CCU is Mavic Cosmic Carbon Ultimate)
Also for Bora, would Bora one be good enough of a wheel compared to ultras? Like the diff between ultegra R8000 and DA9100?
Thanks.
I haven't owned the Ultras but from what I can tell, it's just an upgrade in bearings and a carbon hub shell. I don't even think there's a real world difference in weight since the Ones come in quite a bit underweight. So, in my opinion, not worth it at all.
I've had Pro Carbon SL (comfy, flexy and superb braking), CCU (super stiff laterally, OK comfort, super slow feeling, superb braking) and 2017 Cosmic Ultimate (same as old CCU unfortunately while having the same visceral stiffness). Mavic can't seem to make wheels that don't feel slow. I'm sure I'm not going any slower on them but they just feel like dogs going forward.
I've had Pro Carbon SL (comfy, flexy and superb braking), CCU (super stiff laterally, OK comfort, super slow feeling, superb braking) and 2017 Cosmic Ultimate (same as old CCU unfortunately while having the same visceral stiffness). Mavic can't seem to make wheels that don't feel slow. I'm sure I'm not going any slower on them but they just feel like dogs going forward.
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Thanks Ryan, how much do you think is a reasonable price for the Bora Ones and Bora Ultras.RyanH wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 pmI haven't owned the Ultras but from what I can tell, it's just an upgrade in bearings and a carbon hub shell. I don't even think there's a real world difference in weight since the Ones come in quite a bit underweight. So, in my opinion, not worth it at all.
I've had Pro Carbon SL (comfy, flexy and superb braking), CCU (super stiff laterally, OK comfort, super slow feeling, superb braking) and 2017 Cosmic Ultimate (same as old CCU unfortunately while having the same visceral stiffness). Mavic can't seem to make wheels that don't feel slow. I'm sure I'm not going any slower on them but they just feel like dogs going forward.
So I'm looking at a deal on new Enve with DT240 at around 2000 usd including tax and everything, will 1600usd Bora One 50 clinchers, or 2200 usd Bora Ultra 35 Clinchers be more value for the money than the enves?
Also I noticed a lot of people go tubular for Bora one 50, do you think it is worth the trouble? I mean I never used a tubular before.
I recently bought a set of Bora 35 Ultras for $2000 but I had to pay $200 in duty. So your $2200 estimate is a fair price. I also have a set of the Bora 50 Ones which I paid around $1600. There’s a big difference in bearing drag on the bike stand between the Ones and Ultras. However I don’t know yet if the lower bearing drag translates into faster speed on the road. My first ride on the Ultras was phenomenal however I think it’s mostly due to the 35’s being smoother riding than the stiffer 50’s.
I’ve never owned tubulars either. My thought is that with tubulars you would have to carry a spare tire which weighs 300 grams. With clinchers I carry two spare Conti Supersonic tubes that weigh a total of 100 grams. I know that less rotational mass is better but the trade offs aren’t worth it for me personally.
The Enves will be heavier than the Boras for the same rim depth. My estimate is around 100 grams. With the Boras you’d get 2:1 spoke pattern on the rear and that alone will result in a stiffer wheel than a traditionally laced rear wheel with 24 spokes. Lastly the DT rear hub has been known to be laterally soft due to the bearing placement/hub flange spacing.
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I’ve never owned tubulars either. My thought is that with tubulars you would have to carry a spare tire which weighs 300 grams. With clinchers I carry two spare Conti Supersonic tubes that weigh a total of 100 grams. I know that less rotational mass is better but the trade offs aren’t worth it for me personally.
The Enves will be heavier than the Boras for the same rim depth. My estimate is around 100 grams. With the Boras you’d get 2:1 spoke pattern on the rear and that alone will result in a stiffer wheel than a traditionally laced rear wheel with 24 spokes. Lastly the DT rear hub has been known to be laterally soft due to the bearing placement/hub flange spacing.
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One thing you can do with the DT 240 hubs is to use normal round double butted spokes in your build. These will add greatly to the lateral stiffness of the wheel and won't make much of an aero difference over the usual CX-Ray / Aerolite choice. DT 240s hubs are simply brilliant when it comes to simplicity of service and long term robustness.pdlpsher1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:14 am
The Enves will be heavier than the Boras for the same rim depth. My estimate is around 100 grams. With the Boras you’d get 2:1 spoke pattern on the rear and that alone will result in a stiffer wheel than a traditionally laced rear wheel with 24 spokes. Lastly the DT rear hub has been known to be laterally soft due to the bearing placement/hub flange spacing.
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Well known to many Enve users it seems.pdlpsher1 wrote: The Enves will be heavier than the Boras for the same rim depth. My estimate is around 100 grams. With the Boras you’d get 2:1 spoke pattern on the rear and that alone will result in a stiffer wheel than a traditionally laced rear wheel with 24 spokes. Lastly the DT rear hub has been known to be laterally soft due to the bearing placement/hub flange spacing.
But more due to the Enve hubs.
For example, the DT Swiss wheels with the DT Swiss ratchet system internals, the DT Swiss hub and the DT Swiss spokes are not soft.
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I have Enve wheels built identically by the same wheelbuilder with Sapim Race spokes with 240s and White T11 rear hubs and the 240s wheel is slightly less stiff laterally. It's a simple function of the hub flange geometry.TonyM wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:36 pmWell known to many Enve users it seems.pdlpsher1 wrote: The Enves will be heavier than the Boras for the same rim depth. My estimate is around 100 grams. With the Boras you’d get 2:1 spoke pattern on the rear and that alone will result in a stiffer wheel than a traditionally laced rear wheel with 24 spokes. Lastly the DT rear hub has been known to be laterally soft due to the bearing placement/hub flange spacing.
But more due to the Enve hubs.
For example, the DT Swiss wheels with the DT Swiss ratchet system internals, the DT Swiss hub and the DT Swiss spokes are not soft.
That's why the system DT Swiss ratchet 240+DT Swiss hubs+DT Swiss spokes+DT Swiss rims is a better combo.BdaGhisallo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:45 pmI have Enve wheels built identically by the same wheelbuilder with Sapim Race spokes with 240s and White T11 rear hubs and the 240s wheel is slightly less stiff laterally. It's a simple function of the hub flange geometry.TonyM wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:36 pmWell known to many Enve users it seems.pdlpsher1 wrote: The Enves will be heavier than the Boras for the same rim depth. My estimate is around 100 grams. With the Boras you’d get 2:1 spoke pattern on the rear and that alone will result in a stiffer wheel than a traditionally laced rear wheel with 24 spokes. Lastly the DT rear hub has been known to be laterally soft due to the bearing placement/hub flange spacing.
But more due to the Enve hubs.
For example, the DT Swiss wheels with the DT Swiss ratchet system internals, the DT Swiss hub and the DT Swiss spokes are not soft.
Each product taken individually may sometimes be very good but at the end the final product (wheel) is the most important and all the components have to match together.
I paid $1250 for both my Bora 35s and 50s. They rode almost identical but the 35s catch less wind and look better IMO. I think the larger logos on the 50s looks a bit garish. They're cup and cone bearings so a difference of rotation in the stands is most likely due to amount of grease packed in and how tightly they're preloaded. Both of my ones spun an extremely long time in the stand.
Also, for Enve, I built my 3.4s with Wheels Mfg hubs for $2100, so if you can find Gen 2 rims on closeout (there should still be some) you can build them for cheaper.
But still, Boras all day long, they're simply the better wheel.
Also, for Enve, I built my 3.4s with Wheels Mfg hubs for $2100, so if you can find Gen 2 rims on closeout (there should still be some) you can build them for cheaper.
But still, Boras all day long, they're simply the better wheel.
Whether the DT Swiss hubs are built as a “system”, or laced with DT spokes to a third party rim, it does not change the fact that their geometry simply is less than ideal for building a laterally stiff wheel. As someone said, using heavier, and round spokes will help to a degree but if you are a heavier or powerful rider who likes to sprint, I’d look elsewhere. If you are a smaller rider you’ll likely be fine. I’ve had several DT 240 and 190 wheelsets. They’ve ended up in friends garages. Good enough wheels, but not for me.
At the end of the day, you can’t go wrong with the Boras. One or Ultra. It’s really just the bearings and the material of the hub shell that are different.
At the end of the day, you can’t go wrong with the Boras. One or Ultra. It’s really just the bearings and the material of the hub shell that are different.
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Exactly! I am only about 155 lbs and not the most powerful rider, so the slightly lower lateral stiffness of a DT 240s hubbed rear wheel is not an issue for me. I simply open my brake pads by two or three more turns of the barrel adjuster and I am set. I like to have my brake levers close to the bars before the pads touch the rim anyhow so I am not giving up anything.Calnago wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:38 pmWhether the DT Swiss hubs are built as a “system”, or laced with DT spokes to a third party rim, it does not change the fact that their geometry simply is less than ideal for building a laterally stiff wheel. As someone said, using heavier, and round spokes will help to a degree but if you are a heavier or powerful rider who likes to sprint, I’d look elsewhere. If you are a smaller rider you’ll likely be fine. I’ve had several DT 240 and 190 wheelsets. They’ve ended up in friends garages. Good enough wheels, but not for me.
At the end of the day, you can’t go wrong with the Boras. One or Ultra. It’s really just the bearings and the material of the hub shell that are different.
Where the 240s hubs do excel is in mechanical robustness and ease of maintenace. They are truly a component that works with a minimum of fuss and requires very little in the way of maintenance, and the regular maintenance it does need can be done in minutes without any tools.