Double Square nipples - measuring ERD

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ooo
Posts: 1590
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

How to measure ERD with double square nipples? Spoke should be threaded to the widest diameter of nipple head?
How much different should be spokes for do double square sapim nipples vs spokes for standard nipples?

According to this: Sapim Double Square Nipples are available in 16 and 18mm. (16mm similar to standard 12mm and 18mm similar to standard 14mm)

Some other shops list:
"sapim double square 12mm" (not sure, may be it is the same 16mm type)
Die 12 mm langen Nippel besitzen ein 2 mm Gewinde und sind somit für Felgen mit Ø 3,5 mm Speichenlöchern passend.
("The 12 mm nipples have a 2 mm thread for rims with Ø 3.5 mm holes")

french comments:
Avec un écrou Sapim double square ou un écrou AMC, le rayon monte 2 ou 3 mm plus haut et consolide la zone de contrainte, cela rend le montage beaucoup plus fiable.
("With a double square sapim nut or an AMC nut, the spoke rises 2 or 3 mm higher and consolidates the stress zone, making mounting much more reliable.")
On rajoute 4mm pour le double square ? Pour ma part, je ne rajoute que 2 au maximum (ça dépend de la valeur exacte et de l'arrondi que je fais).
("We add 4mm for the double square? For my part, I add only 2 to the maximum (it depends on the exact value and the rounding that I do).")

There are also other double square nipples (without any spoke calculation recomendations)

Pillar DSN (14.4, 16, 18, 20 mm) http://www.pillarspoke.com/p05-1_external_nipple.htm
cnSPOKE AC144, AC18 (14.4, 18 mm) http://www.cnspoke.com/products_detal.php?id=27
DT Swiss Double Square (14? 15? mm) https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/dt- ... aid:739567
Attachments
Sapim Standard
Sapim Standard
Sapim Double Square
Sapim Double Square
sapim-double-square-12.jpg (3.81 KiB) Viewed 5080 times
Sapim Double Square 16 and 18
Sapim Double Square 16 and 18
cnspoke ds vs sapim ds vs squorx (https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/vergleich-cn-spoke-sapim-und-dt-swiss-double-square-und-squorx.835801/ )
cnspoke ds vs sapim ds vs squorx (https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/vergleich-cn-spoke-sapim-und-dt-swiss-double-square-und-squorx.835801/ )
Sapim 12mm standard vs 16 double square ( http://light-bikes.fr/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=87&start=675 )
Sapim 12mm standard vs 16 double square ( http://light-bikes.fr/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=87&start=675 )
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by Weenie


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F45
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am

by F45

I use the Sapim and the CN on my personal builds.

How to measure ERD with double square nipples? Spoke should be threaded to the widest diameter of nipple head?


Essentially, Yes.

What I do for ERD is lay the spoke next to the nipple at the desired penetration and mark it with a sharpie. Then I thread the spoke up to the sharpie mark. Or, you can measure ERD using a standard nipple. It doesn't matter.

How much different should spokes be for double square sapim nipples vs spokes for standard nipples?


No different, or up to 4mm longer.

What the double square allows is a +4mm penetration into the nipple (over standard nipples with the slotted head). So that's a +8mm ERD. It gives a little wiggle room if your spokes are long, or you can us the same length spoke for the whole wheel build. Very convenient!

In addition, when tensioning from the top of the nipple, you only need to move your tool a maximum of 1/8 of a turn for it to connect. With a slotted head, it's double that, and the blade can cam out under load.

I like them a lot.

ooo
Posts: 1590
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

Thanks for feedback. Do you use washers (which type)?

I have found some "free" 12 double square nipples that come with syntace (sapim) spokes,
in 5 nipples that looks like Pillar DSN (alloy) 5mm can be threaded all the way thru nipple & out of square head
in 7 nipples that looks like Sapim Polyax (alloy) nipples spokes head stops around center of square head
so, they have different start thread location

Spoke calculation advice from cnSPOKE AC144 seller is to add +2.3mm to spoke length (or ERD+2*2.3)
Attachments
cnspoke-ac144-spoke.jpg
cnspoke-ac144.jpg
Last edited by ooo on Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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F45
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am

by F45

Interesting on adding the 2.3mm. I haven't done any calc or simulations, but it looks to me that compressive stress would be near the rim bed and threading the spoke farther into the nipple would give no advantage.

I don't use washers except on DT mountain rims that come with them and their squorx nipples.

TheKaiser
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

F45 wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:08 pm
In addition, when tensioning from the top of the nipple, you only need to move your tool a maximum of 1/8 of a turn for it to connect. With a slotted head, it's double that, and the blade can cam out under load.
Why does the tool only require 1/8 of a turn, rather than 1/4 of a turn? Is is simply the difference in slop or play between the tool and nip? I get the advantage of not camming out, but the difference in degrees of twist required I wasn't sure about.

by Weenie


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F45
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by F45

If you visualize two squares overlayed on one another, the worst possible scenario is to put your tool with an apex of the square exactly in the center of the long side of the nipple square. You can then see that it takes only 1/8 of a turn to line up the two squares.

edit - Actually, that assumes that you know which way to turn it. If you started just out of phase and turned the wrong way, it could be almost 1/4 of a turn before you hooked up. So I guess you are more right. :D

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