Neutron wheel out of dish?

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moelstrom
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm

by moelstrom

P1070076.jpg
Hi there WW community, this is my first post and I'm sorry it's a request for assistance. Attached photos are of my rear wheel, Campy Neutron, showing how it has migrated way over on the non drive side. It has a 23mm tire and you can see it is nearly touching the frame. It's perfectly true, but has almost zero clearance on the left side against the frame.

I've been riding this wheel fine for years. I would guess it has about 20,000km on it.

I rode it today, and it rained, which is why everything's all dirty. I'll clean it up later this afternoon.

I really wish I could just bring it to the LBS for a consult, but I am in Tunisia and the LBS is a motorbike shop that sells a few bike tubes. He'd be more able to fix an MRI machine than a carbon Campy wheel.

Any thoughts on this? I am guessing it's out of dish, and that I'll be on my own to fix it. If that's the diagnosis, I'd appreciate some tips on dishing a Campy Neutron if anyone's got any.

The "I'm in Tunisia" thing applies to anyone thinking of recommending a new set of hoops.

Warm regards and thanks in advance for your advice.

Ben
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P1070080.jpg
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by Weenie


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mai
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:05 am
Location: Hong Kong

by mai

if it wasn't that bad before, it is very rare for a wheel to go out of dish over time and still stay true.
check your QR skewers etc to see there's a simple solution... :)

joejack951
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

Do check that the wheel is properly installed first. But assuming that it is, correcting this issue is quite simple. You will need to source the appropriate size spoke key for your wheels (an internet search might be in order). Starting with a true wheel means that you only need to go around and tigthen each drive size spoke 1/4 turn at a time until the dish is correct. There are some things to keep in mind when doing this such as making sure the spoke key is fully engaged on the nipple each tome so that you don't strip any and verify that the spokes are not twisting as you turn the nipple (or compensating by over-turning then backing off).

The likely reason why this happened is that the drive side spokes have lost some tension through use. Even if the non drive side also lost some tension those spokes have a far greater bracing angle and will tend to pull the rim to their side in this situation. Anyone who has ever built a rear wheel has witnessed that you can't just tighten all of the spokes the same amount and expect the rim to stay centered.

If you need help getting a spoke key let me know and I may be able to help.

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1901
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

Also check that its dish by installing the wheel the other way round. If it's dish then the problem will reverse too.

Your problem is a little odd so check everything else to make 100% sure it's a dish problem.

These wheels use internal nipples that take a small hex socket. Like this ImageYou need to remove tire and tape to access.

And do some reading on wheelbuilding before messing with it.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

moelstrom
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm

by moelstrom

mai wrote:if it wasn't that bad before, it is very rare for a wheel to go out of dish over time and still stay true.
check your QR skewers etc to see there's a simple solution... :)


Thanks very much, I think this is a slow-onset problem, I found last year that I couldn't install a 25mm tire, but didn't think to look more closely as to why. I suspect it's a long-term loosening of the drive-side spokes. It isn't the qr!

Your response is appreciated,

Ben

moelstrom
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm

by moelstrom

bikerjulio wrote:Also check that its dish by installing the wheel the other way round. If it's dish then the problem will reverse too.

Your problem is a little odd so check everything else to make 100% sure it's a dish problem.

These wheels use internal nipples that take a small hex socket. Like this ImageYou need to remove tire and tape to access.

And do some reading on wheelbuilding before messing with it.


Brilliant suggestions. I will do that.

moelstrom
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm

by moelstrom

joejack951 wrote:Do check that the wheel is properly installed first. But assuming that it is, correcting this issue is quite simple. You will need to source the appropriate size spoke key for your wheels (an internet search might be in order). Starting with a true wheel means that you only need to go around and tigthen each drive size spoke 1/4 turn at a time until the dish is correct. There are some things to keep in mind when doing this such as making sure the spoke key is fully engaged on the nipple each tome so that you don't strip any and verify that the spokes are not twisting as you turn the nipple (or compensating by over-turning then backing off).

The likely reason why this happened is that the drive side spokes have lost some tension through use. Even if the non drive side also lost some tension those spokes have a far greater bracing angle and will tend to pull the rim to their side in this situation. Anyone who has ever built a rear wheel has witnessed that you can't just tighten all of the spokes the same amount and expect the rim to stay centered.

If you need help getting a spoke key let me know and I may be able to help.


Thank you, I am pretty clear on the tools I'll need (the driver and the tool to hold the blades of the spokes while turning the internal nipple). Stupid question though: which way do I turn the nipples to tighten them? I always get confused with spokes.

User avatar
bikerjulio
Posts: 1901
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

Internal are more intuitive. It's a normal clockwise to tighten.

I'd go extremely carefully. Neutron spokes are proprietary and expensive to replace, and may be hard to find..
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

User avatar
kavitator
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Slovenia---that forest land

by kavitator

If nipple wont go easy - leave it or it will break spoke

Aluminium nipples in Hyperions locked on spokes (i have 2 sets on service , so some new spokes with nipples needed)

c60rider
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

My experience of my own neutron ultras is to make sure you grease the nipples well with some telfon spray first. When you come to turn the nipple you'll find many of the spokes will just twist with the nipple so I have to put some cloth (to protect the spoke) and some pliers to clamp the spoke to make sure it's the nipple that turns. The other important thing with these is to get as close as possible to equal tension on the spokes or one will keep breaking every few months. These wheels seemed so sensitive to that compared to some other wheels I've used. You can certainly get the campag spoke kits but unfortunately they sell them with 2 front, 2 drive and 2 non-drive spokes and it's invariably the drive side that will break.

AJS914
Posts: 2199
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

moelstrom wrote:Thanks very much, I think this is a slow-onset problem, I found last year that I couldn't install a 25mm tire, but didn't think to look more closely as to why. I suspect it's a long-term loosening of the drive-side spokes. It isn't the qr!



I'm finding it really hard to believe that the drive-side would loosen equally such that the dish would be off yet the wheel would still be perfectly true.

User avatar
bikerjulio
Posts: 1901
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

AJS914 wrote:
moelstrom wrote:Thanks very much, I think this is a slow-onset problem, I found last year that I couldn't install a 25mm tire, but didn't think to look more closely as to why. I suspect it's a long-term loosening of the drive-side spokes. It isn't the qr!



I'm finding it really hard to believe that the drive-side would loosen equally such that the dish would be off yet the wheel would still be perfectly true.


My feeling too when writing my thoughts earlier. I don't think I've ever experienced such a thing. I have 2 sets of Neutrons, both high mileage, that have kept true incredibly well under my 200#.

One set was new, but the other was a very used, beaten up reclamation job that needed a little truing. But nothing like OP's.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

mattr
Posts: 3686
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Have you checked the drive side drop out for wear?
I've seen a loose skewer cause wear that wasn't noticed until the tyre touched the seat tube (on a 90's TT bike so FAR less clearance).

Also, please check the wheel properly by flipping it in the drop outs and seeing if the dish is still the same way. (It was mentioned above, i can't see that you've done it.)

You could also try making your own dishing tool (they aren't hard, you can even do it with bits of cardboard, but they aren't very durable!)

moelstrom
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm

by moelstrom

mattr wrote:Have you checked the drive side drop out for wear?
I've seen a loose skewer cause wear that wasn't noticed until the tyre touched the seat tube (on a 90's TT bike so FAR less clearance).

Also, please check the wheel properly by flipping it in the drop outs and seeing if the dish is still the same way. (It was mentioned above, i can't see that you've done it.)

You could also try making your own dishing tool (they aren't hard, you can even do it with bits of cardboard, but they aren't very durable!)


You're right, I haven't done it yet. Rain and work have intervened. But I will, shortly. I don't think it's a dropout question but I will check. How would one create a dishing tool with cardboard?

moelstrom
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm

by moelstrom

mattr wrote:Have you checked the drive side drop out for wear?
I've seen a loose skewer cause wear that wasn't noticed until the tyre touched the seat tube (on a 90's TT bike so FAR less clearance).

Also, please check the wheel properly by flipping it in the drop outs and seeing if the dish is still the same way. (It was mentioned above, i can't see that you've done it.)

You could also try making your own dishing tool (they aren't hard, you can even do it with bits of cardboard, but they aren't very durable!)


The drive side dropout is a little worn, but only very slightly. I reversed the wheel, and the clearance problem is the same on the other side of the frame; the problem is the wheel, not the dropouts.

by Weenie


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