New Zipp 202's and Veloflex Arenberg's Driving Me Crazy!

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Scrench
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:02 am

by Scrench

I recently bought a very lightly used low miles set of Zipp 202's with glued Veloflex Arenberg's off of ebay. They were my dream hill climbing wheel because I rented a set for a Senior Olympics road race a few years ago, and during that race while in the middle of the pack, I was being sucked into the back of other riders while going downhill, without pedaling, and had to constantly brake to keep from running into the back of them. Well, that sold me on the wheels, so here I am with a newer version. I thought this was going to be a hot set up because I also have heard nothing but good things about Veloflex tires. But it feels like the Arenberg's are really slow. I know these aren't their fastest tires, and this is my first experience with 25c tires that everyone has now been brainwashed to believe are faster than smaller widths. So I wanted to try them. They hold grip well in corners and feel very stable, but sometimes feel like the rubber is folding over on itself on the rear (bad description) slowing me down going up a tough hill, and are hard to hold any speed over 19-22 mph. They don't feel very comfortable either. At 140 lbs. I've tried every pressure from 80 psi, where they feel like they are bogging down, to 110 psi where they feel almost rigid and beat you to death, but still not fast. The middle ground leaves them feeling bland, lifeless and slow. I'm basing all of these feelings on a set of Reynolds DV UL 46T's I had with 23c Vittoria Corsa CX's, and the set of Zipp's I rented which also had Corsa's in the 22c flavor.

So I'm trying to decide if I need to ditch the Arenbergs and go with the new Corsa G+ (which I think is too heavy), or take a chance again on Veloflex and get Carbons or Sprinters. Or, is it this new iteration of Zipp 202's that is slowing everything down and giving me a stiff ride? I know some will argue this is not a legitimate test, but I test how wheels roll by giving one downward stroke on my right crank from about the 2:00 position, from a standing still start, then freeze on the bike and see how far it rolls. These Zipp's stop about 100 feet short of where my Reynold's used to go, and I've torn the hubs apart and gently relubed them with Slick Honey, as well as tried different preload adjustments. They WILL roll the full distance if I back the preload off a ridiculous amount, more than I would be willing to ride with, with about 5 mm of side-to-side play if I wiggle the back tire at the top.

Anyway, I'm somewhat stymied at the moment as to how to proceed. Any and all advice would be appreciated.

Thank You,
Richard

glepore
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Location: Pa USA

by glepore

Seal friction is as much of an issue in that sort of test as anything else. Go do a 20k tt on the wheels back to back and then report to us. Include your avg and NP numbers.

Fat tires feel "slow". Doesn't mean they are. Pure rolling resistance from a standing start also duplicates nothing in the real world. You're putting noise in your head.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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F45
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am

by F45

Veloflex tires are slow. A bad glue job is slow. I'd get the Vittorias and have them glued up by a pro.

Scrench
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:02 am

by Scrench

I think you are right about the seal friction, but even so, on regular rides they seem to immediately start to slow down when I stop pedaling, regardless of speed, whereas other wheels seemed to coast at speed for a few seconds at least before they started to slow down.

F45,
Do you think the Extreme's are slow as well? I'd probably jump all over the Corsa G+'s except for their weight, and for me, the last Corsa CX version slipped out from under me at 23 mph after a light rain putting me in bed for a week with cuts and bruises (but the bike barely had a scratch since I sacrificed my body to slide down the road!), although I understand the new ones are greatly improved in that area. And if you get into rolling resistance charts, seems like the Corsa's are the ONLY choice for low Crr without running fragile TT tires.

spdntrxi
Posts: 1537
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I really don't trust Corsa's in the rain CX and G+.. I've been tail happy to many times and off the road into dirt berms... really lucky to not have laid it down yet. I've never felt slow with my Arenburgs..but then again I'm not fast unless I'm going downhill.

sungod
Posts: 1539
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:37 pm
Location: it's raining, it must be uk

by sungod

op: as you point out, you're comparing 25mm tyre feel with 22/23mm

imho what you describe isn't specific to arenbergs, it's the difference between 'fat' tyres and skinny tyres on a road bike

the feel of g+ 25mm is very similar, in my experience the only significant differences are that g+ dry grip is not quite as good as veloflex rubber, while wet grip is slightly better, but the g+ compound cuts up much more easily in the wet

whether arenberg or g+, a supple 25mm has 'give', that's why roubaix/arenberg are marketed for rougher road

after maybe 3 years riding 23/25 front/rear (25 front wasn't good), both veloflex and g+, a couple of months ago i changed to 22/23 (veloflex sprinter/criterium front/rear)

this is on 20mm wide rims, but fwiw...

on routes i do a lot, i'm consistently faster on the high speed sections, crosswind handling is better, and they feel great

overall i'm really enjoying going skinny, i'm on the lookout for something narrower on the front that still has enough rubber to be reasonably robust

RyanH
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by RyanH

At 155, I find the ideal pressure to be 70/85 for those. 23mm may "feel" faster but that's because it's more vibrations coming through.

I've only had two tires that I truly believe are faster. The Corsa G+ 28mm which rode like garden hoses but felt damn fast and Veloflex Vlaanderen pumped up to 75/80. The Vlaanderen are surreal on a stiff rim, the closest thing I can describe it to is that you feel like you're gliding on the pavement, almost like ice skating... But with loads of grip.
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glepore
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by glepore

RyanH wrote:At 155, I find the ideal pressure to be 70/85 for those. 23mm may "feel" faster but that's because it's more vibrations coming through.

I've only had two tires that I truly believe are faster. The Corsa G+ 28mm which rode like garden hoses but felt damn fast and Veloflex Vlaanderen pumped up to 75/80. The Vlaanderen are surreal on a stiff rim, the closest thing I can describe it to is that you feel like you're gliding on the pavement, almost like ice skating... But with loads of grip.


My experience with the G's are clinchers, and the 25's blow up to 28 on wide rims. Amazing tires, plush as hell, but man they do roll fast. Initial turn in is a little slow due in that size, but the ultimate grip is really eye opening. Wet grip is acceptable, much better than the last gen, but they do pick up lots of debris in the wet.

To the op, if you want something that feels "fast", go try a set of CCU's or Lightweights (or another really stiff uberlight wheel-I know Ryan has thoughts on this topic, and has a pair of CCU's for sale at a reasonable price). I thought the whole thing was hokum, but the feeling of instant "right there" acceleration is pretty inspiring, particularly when bridging gaps. You need to shoot for a wheel that is that stiff and around 1000g.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

Scrench
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:02 am

by Scrench

Right now I'm considering mounting two Vx Extreme's, or an Extreme rear/Record Front, and backing off the preload on my Zipps just a hair more. I don't care if I toast the bearings because they are simple to replace. The gentle rolling hill roads I ride on out in the country have no glass, and I am obsessive about watching where I go to avoid bad cracks, potholes and the like, so that's what makes me think I can get away with running a Record. I have never flatted a tubular, and only once flatted a clincher. Has anyone tried this combination?

I'd like to hear more about these "affordable" CCU's.

glepore
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: Pa USA

by glepore

They are on paceline forum. You ll be gine with records, I have Carbons on the lw's. I miss the extra width but not so much that I 'll tear them off until they 're worn.


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Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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