Enve Clincher Failure

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alcatraz
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Any chance that the wheels are not genuine?

Oddest thing is that it happened on the rear. Was only the right side of the rim deformed?

I just got chinese carbon clinchers (fairly new model) and after going down some 10-15% descents of 1-3km I would feel the rim and it never burns my hand. I guess I could be peaking at 100C the most for me to feel 60C after descending. (70kg riding weight)

Are these enve wheels older with less temperature resistant resin? Older carbon wheels were deforming at under 200C while modern enve/zipp's should be in the upper 200s.

In any case, very odd. I would inspect the brake pads. If this rider likes to ride the rear brake a lot then it should show up as significantly more wear on the rear pads.

/a

by Weenie


Mr.Gib
Posts: 3230
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

I live in fear of this kind of product failure. I am a mere 80 kg and would not think about taking my carbon clinchers anywhere where serious braking is required. 95kg - asking for trouble. Big sweeping mountain descents are not necessarily a problem (unless you get stuck behind traffic). It's those steep, tight little ones where you can't let the bike go that can do you in. I won't trust my Mavic Ksyrium Pro Carbons and those wheels have some impressive data regarding withstanding heat build-up. In the mountains it's alloy only for me. And even with alloy heat from braking can lead to trouble.

As for the fact that the failure was on the rear wheel, perhaps the braking technique leaves something to be desired.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

RussellS
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am

by RussellS

billspreston wrote:RussellS he is 190cm tall, 95kg. Not huge, but bigger than your average WW.


6'2" and 209 pounds. That is above the average weight, height of USA and Europe. But not too far above. Very strange to ruin rims on a short descent where the braking is not that lengthy.

spdntrxi
Posts: 2046
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

friend on mine did this to his 4.5's (old brake track) Enve took care of him with new 4.5.. no issues so far (1yr). He's .. 230ish.

AJS914
Posts: 2482
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

This is why I'm staying away from carbon clinchers. They are a fundamentally flawed product. (And no, I'm not going back to tubulars.)

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 2071
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:This is why I'm staying away from carbon clinchers. They are a fundamentally flawed product. (And no, I'm not going back to tubulars.)


Rim braking is fundamentally flawed. If only there were some kind of technology to remove the braking surface from the rim structure.

--

And yes, this guy needs to learn how to brake. As I posited earlier, I bet he's a very timid descender who is riding his rear brake all the way down. Just...ugh.

alcatraz
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

If you're heavy and like long descents then get a disc brake. Simple as that....

If you're light then go ahead knowing there is a risk. And stay away from cakes and sweets if you want to stay alive :D

1415chris
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:59 am
Location: Surrey UK

by 1415chris

I remember at some point on this forum, there were people reporting failures of Enve being ridden in Alps. Don't recall exact circumstances but, somebody concluded that it was happening with Enve, not with Zipp wheels.
I don't want to start another Enve vs Zipp discussion but isn't the case that for some reasons Enve are more prone to this kind of damage, not hearing/seeing similar Zipp's failures?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 2071
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

1415chris wrote:I remember at some point on this forum, there were people reporting failures of Enve being ridden in Alps. Don't recall exact circumstances but, somebody concluded that it was happening with Enve, not with Zipp wheels.
I don't want to start another Enve vs Zipp discussion but isn't the case that for some reasons Enve are more prone to this kind of damage, not hearing/seeing similar Zipp's failures?


Zipp may be using resins that are more heat tolerant, but there is a trade-off. The resins that handle heat better are also more brittle, so you give up overall durability instead. The stopgap fix is to use the heat-tolerant resins and overbuild the rim with more material.

The real solution is to switch to disc brakes.

duende
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:07 am

by duende

Does Enve lifetime warranty cover this?

spdntrxi
Posts: 2046
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

newsflash.... disc brakes fade and fluid can boil
Enve is not the only one.. Zipps can do it too..
some of it is user error

spartan
Posts: 1188
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

complete BS from the fan boys, resellers.
the inconvenient truth ENVE's carbon rims are not up to snuff regarding braking surface.

Tour Mag Intl tested all the best wheels last year. Enve refused to send a pair for review. Rims that survived the alpine torture test campy ,zipp.
reynolds failed.

buy BORA's end of story

ENVE charge primo dollars for their inferior product

TobinHatesYou wrote:
1415chris wrote:I remember at some point on this forum, there were people reporting failures of Enve being ridden in Alps. Don't recall exact circumstances but, somebody concluded that it was happening with Enve, not with Zipp wheels.
I don't want to start another Enve vs Zipp discussion but isn't the case that for some reasons Enve are more prone to this kind of damage, not hearing/seeing similar Zipp's failures?


Zipp may be using resins that are more heat tolerant, but there is a trade-off. The resins that handle heat better are also more brittle, so you give up overall durability instead. The stopgap fix is to use the heat-tolerant resins and overbuild the rim with more material.

The real solution is to switch to disc brakes.
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

spdntrxi
Posts: 2046
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I have zipp and enve's... I'm still a fanboy until I buy Bora.. oh ok?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 2071
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

spdntrxi wrote:newsflash.... disc brakes fade and fluid can boil
Enve is not the only one.. Zipps can do it too..
some of it is user error


I tried resin pads for a while and yes, they faded after a 3000ft technical descent. I went back to sintered pads and my brake performance does not noticeably fade. As for the boiling point of the various brake line fluids...way higher than the failure point of the kinds of resins used in carbon bicycle component manufacturing. So yeah you can see when the brake line fails in, say, Hydraulic Press Channel's video...after the brake has turned glowing orange. Have you ever seen your bicycle disc brake rotor glow under real world braking? I haven't.

spartan wrote:complete BS from the fan boys, resellers.
the inconvenient truth ENVE's carbon rims are not up to snuff regarding braking surface.

Tour Mag Intl tested all the best wheels last year. Enve refused to send a pair for review. Rims that survived the alpine torture test campy ,zipp.
reynolds failed.

buy BORA's end of story

ENVE charge primo dollars for their inferior product


I'll use whatever works and ticks the right boxes. If that happens to be a Zipp wheel, that's fine. I'm quite the SRAM/Quarq fanboy too. The problem is Zipp wheels are just as expensive as ENVEs with a couple issues that need to be resolved.

1) Zipp really should open up to custom builds. I don't want their 77/177 hubs. I want White Industries CLDs, DT Swiss 240s, I9 Torch, etc.
2) Get fully onboard the tubeless train...None of the NSWs are tubeless ready.
3) NSWs cost more than the most expensive ENVE build.
4) Warranty. ENVE's 5-years is industry leading at the moment. I ride hard and I know if my wheels ever delam, I am covered. I also crash occasionally and ENVE has that covered too with half-price crash replacements.

Again, doesn't mean I only have eyes for ENVE. I want a pair of shallow disc clinchers for every day rides. I've been looking at Nox's Falkor 36Ds and ENVE SES 3.4 Discs. If Zipp wants to modernize the 202s and have them come in around 1400g like the ENVEs do, I will certainly consider them despite the 77/177D hubs.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


duende
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:07 am

by duende

TobinHatesYou wrote:
spdntrxi wrote:newsflash.... disc brakes fade and fluid can boil
Enve is not the only one.. Zipps can do it too..
some of it is user error


I tried resin pads for a while and yes, they faded after a 3000ft technical descent. I went back to sintered pads and my brake performance does not noticeably fade. As for the boiling point of the various brake line fluids...way higher than the failure point of the kinds of resins used in carbon bicycle component manufacturing. So yeah you can see when the brake line fails in, say, Hydraulic Press Channel's video...after the brake has turned glowing orange. Have you ever seen your bicycle disc brake rotor glow under real world braking? I haven't.

spartan wrote:complete BS from the fan boys, resellers.
the inconvenient truth ENVE's carbon rims are not up to snuff regarding braking surface.

Tour Mag Intl tested all the best wheels last year. Enve refused to send a pair for review. Rims that survived the alpine torture test campy ,zipp.
reynolds failed.

buy BORA's end of story

ENVE charge primo dollars for their inferior product


I'll use whatever works and ticks the right boxes. If that happens to be a Zipp wheel, that's fine. I'm quite the SRAM/Quarq fanboy too. The problem is Zipp wheels are just as expensive as ENVEs with a couple issues that need to be resolved.

1) Zipp really should open up to custom builds. I don't want their 77/177 hubs. I want White Industries CLDs, DT Swiss 240s, I9 Torch, etc.
2) Get fully onboard the tubeless train...None of the NSWs are tubeless ready.
3) NSWs cost more than the most expensive ENVE build.
4) Warranty. ENVE's 5-years is industry leading at the moment. I ride hard and I know if my wheels ever delam, I am covered. I also crash occasionally and ENVE has that covered to with half-price crash replacements.

Again, doesn't mean I only have eyes for ENVE. I want a pair of shallow disc clinchers for every day rides. I've been looking at Nox's Falkor 36Ds and ENVE SES 3.4 Discs. If Zipp wants to modernize the 202s and have them come in around 1400g like the ENVEs do, I will certainly consider them despite the 77/177D hubs.


+1

The new Enve 3.4's have the features I'm after. 21mm internal width, clincher and tubeless...
If Zipps or Bora's had something comparable, then I'd give them a shot.

Plus Enve's have a proven track record for me on some off road routes that have munched other Carbon wheels I've had. Same goes for my Bora's so they both rule imo.

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