Noctiluxx wrote:My 2015 Bora Ultra 50 clinchers are being replaced due to a faulty rear hub. Can I expect to see the AC3 BU's as replacement?
What was the problem with the rear hub?
(I also have some Bora 50 Ultra 2015)
Campagnolo Bora AC3 Braking Treatment
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TonyM wrote:Noctiluxx wrote:My 2015 Bora Ultra 50 clinchers are being replaced due to a faulty rear hub. Can I expect to see the AC3 BU's as replacement?
What was the problem with the rear hub?
(I also have some Bora 50 Ultra 2015)
The rear wheel had too much play. My LBS sent in the wheel to Campagnolo service facility who determined the wheel needed replacing.
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Ok, googled a little bit about new AC3 version and wondering if this is improvement at all vs 2015+ models..
On italian forums there is some complaining about new AC3 beeing very loud and making noise when braking:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search
Also on german forums there is some pictures of braking pads maybe wearing a bit fast:
http://forum.tour-magazin.de/showthread ... a-AC3-2018
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search
And i'll post again review from CyclingTips (clincher version here): https://cyclingtips.com/2017/08/campagn ... et-review/
Where they showed very little braking difference between new AC3 and older model (2015+).
So wondering.. If this new model is better then older one at all? Somewhere i readed that in this new model there is more Heat Resistant Resin, so probably better suited for longer downhills in hot climate.. But different sources say's that everything same except moure roughness on braking surface for better braking..
So, wondering how rirders having them both (older and new version), compare each other? If u are buying a Tub Bora 50 this days, will u go for new AC3? Or old version? And for what price difference ull choose one vs another?
@Calnago, since u have them both.. What is ur opinion?
On italian forums there is some complaining about new AC3 beeing very loud and making noise when braking:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search
Also on german forums there is some pictures of braking pads maybe wearing a bit fast:
http://forum.tour-magazin.de/showthread ... a-AC3-2018
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search
And i'll post again review from CyclingTips (clincher version here): https://cyclingtips.com/2017/08/campagn ... et-review/
Where they showed very little braking difference between new AC3 and older model (2015+).
So wondering.. If this new model is better then older one at all? Somewhere i readed that in this new model there is more Heat Resistant Resin, so probably better suited for longer downhills in hot climate.. But different sources say's that everything same except moure roughness on braking surface for better braking..
So, wondering how rirders having them both (older and new version), compare each other? If u are buying a Tub Bora 50 this days, will u go for new AC3? Or old version? And for what price difference ull choose one vs another?
@Calnago, since u have them both.. What is ur opinion?
I can't really imagine the new textured brake treatment making any significant difference in dry weather (you don't see HiPo or motorcycles running slotted rotors for improved dry performance). I see more comments about the noise and accelerated pad wear from the likes of Enve and Zipp now than I do any life-altering claims about improved stopping power. To me, that speaks to just how good carbon braking surfaces, at least in the tubular variety, have come over the last couple of years. They may be better, but I don't think it's significant.
Anecdotally, I've got some R-Sys SLR tubulars I just rode over the weekend for the first time. I'm waiting for the Mavic pads so I used black prince pads to avoid damaging the exalith coating. The braking power was not close to the level of my Diamante Boras with red pads.
Anecdotally, I've got some R-Sys SLR tubulars I just rode over the weekend for the first time. I'm waiting for the Mavic pads so I used black prince pads to avoid damaging the exalith coating. The braking power was not close to the level of my Diamante Boras with red pads.
Ok, last question...
On Campy site: https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/CampyW ... next_level
There is this: "Aside from the externally obvious textured design upon the brake track, the construction of the new Bora wheels underwent some internal optimization to orient the fibers in a way to guarantee maximum integrity in the face of new input deriving from a new braking surface. The highly sophisticated resin optimized by Campagnolo engineering staff to withstand higher temperatures than the Bora’s competition and to dissipate the extreme heat produced during the braking phase."
Not clear enough if this is comparation just to the competion, or competition plus previos version of Bora (Diamand 3D).
Or is there any other difference except more rough brake surface to the previous version?
On Campy site: https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/CampyW ... next_level
There is this: "Aside from the externally obvious textured design upon the brake track, the construction of the new Bora wheels underwent some internal optimization to orient the fibers in a way to guarantee maximum integrity in the face of new input deriving from a new braking surface. The highly sophisticated resin optimized by Campagnolo engineering staff to withstand higher temperatures than the Bora’s competition and to dissipate the extreme heat produced during the braking phase."
Not clear enough if this is comparation just to the competion, or competition plus previos version of Bora (Diamand 3D).
Or is there any other difference except more rough brake surface to the previous version?
I haven't reported back here with my complete thoughts on the AC3 braking surface on the newest Boras simply because until recently I haven't really had a chance to test them out in torrential rain. Wet weather, yes, but really hard driving rain over time... no, until recently that is.
Here's my thoughts to date...
Dry weather:
I would have a difficult time saying they're better. They are noisier, and my intuition says they stop better simply because the braking surface is rougher, but not so much that I without a doubt prefer them over the previous brake track (Diamante). In fact, I think I prefer the "softer" sound of the Diamante brake tracks and the braking was already so good, that I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not having the AC3 brake tracks, at least in dry weather.
Wet Weather:
Campagnolo claims significantly greater stopping power in the wet than other manufacturers' rims, like 55% better than their closest competitor, and over 40% better than their previous models. Those are some pretty bold claims that I just couldn't feel personally. And if I can't feel it, then I really don't care what they state in their marketing claims or how they want to scale their graphs to make miniscule differences seem huge. This goes for any manufacturer. But when it came down to it, and I rode these things in the worst conditions I could bear to go out in, I found them to be even noisier than in the dry (somewhat expected), and I didn't feel any more confident in their braking than on the previous versions. Here's where riding in really bad conditions gets interesting. In nasty downpour conditions on wet pavement, mixed with automobile oils, etc., it's never the braking power that concerns me, or even the modulation of good rims and brakes (which I take as a given on all my bikes with good true rims and well adjusted brakes)... it's always the traction my road tires have on the pavement. I could have locked the wheels with these rims and rim brakes or disc brakes and disc wheels... but the threshold for losing traction is just so low in those scenarios that it's really about watching your surroundings and keeping a close eye on things and planning your stops well in advance. Versus mountain biking in loamy dirt or even wet mud with big knobby tires, where you can get loads of traction to brake in, at least relative to the smooth wet oiled surfaces of most paved roads and relatively smooth road tires, regardless of whether they're skinny or fat. Riding in nasty wet weather is never pleasant. It sucks. And you have to be careful, first and foremost regardless of what you're riding.
My Conclusions:
For me personally, I like the previous brake track (Diamante, just prior to AC3) most of all. They give off a pleasant soft whistle like sound and braking is superb in the dry. I suppose maybe if I was forced to be racing in inclement conditions, then I might opt for the AC3 brake track simply because they claim it to be better, and from the added roughness of the track and sound it makes, I'd have to think it is in fact producing more aggressive friction between pads and brake track. I also think that it must wear the pads faster as well, but I've not used them enough in bad weather to wear through a set of pads. They are not like the Mavic Exalith (sp?) surface however, as that surface is like a file and eats pads quickly from what I've seen on a friends bike who has them.
I guess that's it. I suppose all the newer Boras have the AC3 brake tracks at this point. But for me, they could have left well enough a lone and I'd have been fine with that.
Here's my thoughts to date...
Dry weather:
I would have a difficult time saying they're better. They are noisier, and my intuition says they stop better simply because the braking surface is rougher, but not so much that I without a doubt prefer them over the previous brake track (Diamante). In fact, I think I prefer the "softer" sound of the Diamante brake tracks and the braking was already so good, that I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not having the AC3 brake tracks, at least in dry weather.
Wet Weather:
Campagnolo claims significantly greater stopping power in the wet than other manufacturers' rims, like 55% better than their closest competitor, and over 40% better than their previous models. Those are some pretty bold claims that I just couldn't feel personally. And if I can't feel it, then I really don't care what they state in their marketing claims or how they want to scale their graphs to make miniscule differences seem huge. This goes for any manufacturer. But when it came down to it, and I rode these things in the worst conditions I could bear to go out in, I found them to be even noisier than in the dry (somewhat expected), and I didn't feel any more confident in their braking than on the previous versions. Here's where riding in really bad conditions gets interesting. In nasty downpour conditions on wet pavement, mixed with automobile oils, etc., it's never the braking power that concerns me, or even the modulation of good rims and brakes (which I take as a given on all my bikes with good true rims and well adjusted brakes)... it's always the traction my road tires have on the pavement. I could have locked the wheels with these rims and rim brakes or disc brakes and disc wheels... but the threshold for losing traction is just so low in those scenarios that it's really about watching your surroundings and keeping a close eye on things and planning your stops well in advance. Versus mountain biking in loamy dirt or even wet mud with big knobby tires, where you can get loads of traction to brake in, at least relative to the smooth wet oiled surfaces of most paved roads and relatively smooth road tires, regardless of whether they're skinny or fat. Riding in nasty wet weather is never pleasant. It sucks. And you have to be careful, first and foremost regardless of what you're riding.
My Conclusions:
For me personally, I like the previous brake track (Diamante, just prior to AC3) most of all. They give off a pleasant soft whistle like sound and braking is superb in the dry. I suppose maybe if I was forced to be racing in inclement conditions, then I might opt for the AC3 brake track simply because they claim it to be better, and from the added roughness of the track and sound it makes, I'd have to think it is in fact producing more aggressive friction between pads and brake track. I also think that it must wear the pads faster as well, but I've not used them enough in bad weather to wear through a set of pads. They are not like the Mavic Exalith (sp?) surface however, as that surface is like a file and eats pads quickly from what I've seen on a friends bike who has them.
I guess that's it. I suppose all the newer Boras have the AC3 brake tracks at this point. But for me, they could have left well enough a lone and I'd have been fine with that.
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Calnago wrote:I haven't reported back here with my complete thoughts on the AC3 braking surface on the newest Boras simply because until recently I haven't really had a chance to test them out in torrential rain. Wet weather, yes, but really hard driving rain over time... no, until recently that is.
Here's my thoughts to date...
Dry weather:
I would have a difficult time saying they're better. They are noisier, and my intuition says they stop better simply because the braking surface is rougher, but not so much that I without a doubt prefer them over the previous brake track (Diamante). In fact, I think I prefer the "softer" sound of the Diamante brake tracks and the braking was already so good, that I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not having the AC3 brake tracks, at least in dry weather.
Wet Weather:
Campagnolo claims significantly greater stopping power in the wet than other manufacturers' rims, like 55% better than their closest competitor, and over 40% better than their previous models. Those are some pretty bold claims that I just couldn't feel personally. And if I can't feel it, then I really don't care what they state in their marketing claims or how they want to scale their graphs to make miniscule differences seem huge. This goes for any manufacturer. But when it came down to it, and I rode these things in the worst conditions I could bear to go out in, I found them to be even noisier than in the dry (somewhat expected), and I didn't feel any more confident in their braking than on the previous versions. Here's where riding in really bad conditions gets interesting. In nasty downpour conditions on wet pavement, mixed with automobile oils, etc., it's never the braking power that concerns me, or even the modulation of good rims and brakes (which I take as a given on all my bikes with good true rims and well adjusted brakes)... it's always the traction my road tires have on the pavement. I could have locked the wheels with these rims and rim brakes or disc brakes and disc wheels... but the threshold for losing traction is just so low in those scenarios that it's really about watching your surroundings and keeping a close eye on things and planning your stops well in advance. Versus mountain biking in loamy dirt or even wet mud with big knobby tires, where you can get loads of traction to brake in, at least relative to the smooth wet oiled surfaces of most paved roads and relatively smooth road tires, regardless of whether they're skinny or fat. Riding in nasty wet weather is never pleasant. It sucks. And you have to be careful, first and foremost regardless of what you're riding.
My Conclusions:
For me personally, I like the previous brake track (Diamante, just prior to AC3) most of all. They give off a pleasant soft whistle like sound and braking is superb in the dry. I suppose maybe if I was forced to be racing in inclement conditions, then I might opt for the AC3 brake track simply because they claim it to be better, and from the added roughness of the track and sound it makes, I'd have to think it is in fact producing more aggressive friction between pads and brake track. I also think that it must wear the pads faster as well, but I've not used them enough in bad weather to wear through a set of pads. They are not like the Mavic Exalith (sp?) surface however, as that surface is like a file and eats pads quickly from what I've seen on a friends bike who has them.
I guess that's it. I suppose all the newer Boras have the AC3 brake tracks at this point. But for me, they could have left well enough a lone and I'd have been fine with that.
Ur review come's just in time, since i have Bora One 50 Tubulars AC3 in the shopping basket (i fixed the Pinarello FP3, so no need for now for other frame, Power Meter not on stock and i should wait at least 3 months, so i started thinking to get new wheelset..).
Based on ur review, seem that u prefer the old version (3Diamant), since i can understund they brake the same in real world, better braking sound of 3Diamand (i really like this sound and feeling) and also the brake pads would last longer on 3Diamant as i understund (by what margin? Just slighlty or big difference? ).
And also i agree that 3Diamant are braking really nice (in Dry Better then my Shamals Alloy).
Seem like AC3 is one step back vs 3Diamant. Which make me a bit sorry since i missed last pair of 3Diamant Bora One 50 Tubs, which was a 150 EUR cheaper as well.
And again.. I cant stop thinking that seem AC3 is step back overall and not on level with 3Diamant...
The question now is what i'll get with Bora One 50 Tub AC3 vs my Bora One 35 Tub (3Diamant) + Shamal Ultra?
But to dont ruin the topic here, i'll continue this question on some other threads....
BTW, i also asked Campagnolo what is the differences between new and old version.. This is what i got:
"Hello
There isn´t any other difference between AC3 (2018) and 3Diamant (2015+) versions except the braking surface."
"So this mean that there is no advantage of one version vs other in term of going downhill on steep mountains in hot summer and danger from melting of resin?
That’s correct. Since 2015 the rims are always the same. Fur 2018 the AC3 version has additional the small grooves on the break surface.
And only advantage on AC3 will be ONLY in wet weather riding?
Yes of course."
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I am not 100% sure but on my 2000Km old 3diamant i think I am seeing a bit of softening of the tooling marks and a hint of glazing (this included a fair of amount of steep descents) so I guess after some serious use the AC3 could smooth out a little and become less noisy.
Calnago wrote:...it's always the traction my road tires have on the pavement...
Bingo. I've been caught out in rain 3 times now on my Boras (with Diamante) and each time I've felt like I was able to push the braking as far as I was comfortable pushing the tires (Arenberg). Good grip, and no concern - but I'm also not pushing like I'm in a race. And at that level, I think the braking power is completely sufficient (anecdotally, I still think they brake better in wet than classic Enves do in dry).
Calnago wrote:
My Conclusions:
For me personally, I like the previous brake track (Diamante, just prior to AC3) most of all. They give off a pleasant soft whistle like sound and braking is superb in the dry. I suppose maybe if I was forced to be racing in inclement conditions, then I might opt for the AC3 brake track simply because they claim it to be better, and from the added roughness of the track and sound it makes, I'd have to think it is in fact producing more aggressive friction between pads and brake track. I also think that it must wear the pads faster as well, but I've not used them enough in bad weather to wear through a set of pads. They are not like the Mavic Exalith (sp?) surface however, as that surface is like a file and eats pads quickly from what I've seen on a friends bike who has them.
I guess that's it. I suppose all the newer Boras have the AC3 brake tracks at this point. But for me, they could have left well enough a lone and I'd have been fine with that.
Calnago (and others), please help me with ur opinion...
Since there is out of stock 3Diamant now im trying to find some old stock and need ur opinion, if u are buying Bora 50 Tub which one u'll buy if:
1. 3Diamant or AC3 if they are same price?
2. 3Diamant or AC3 if 3Diamant is more expensive 170 eur
3. 3Diamant or AC3 if AC3 is more expensive 170 eur
Thanks..This will help me a lot...
@3Pio: how do you sleep at night?
Now that I’ve had the opportunity to own both concurrently. I’d probably get the pre AC3 version if I got another set and they were available. If resale is a concern the latest version is usually more saleable, however.
Now that I’ve had the opportunity to own both concurrently. I’d probably get the pre AC3 version if I got another set and they were available. If resale is a concern the latest version is usually more saleable, however.
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Calnago wrote:@3Pio: how do you sleep at night?
Now that I’ve had the opportunity to own both concurrently. I’d probably get the pre AC3 version if I got another set and they were available. If resale is a concern the latest version is usually more saleable, however.
I'm glad to hear it, since I bought Bora Ultra 35's just before AC3 and was disappointed
I'm curious as to why you'd go this way though?@robertbb: see my post a little ways back where I went into it in more detail.
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Calnago wrote:@robertbb: see my post a little ways back where I went into it in more detail.
Thanks Calnago - very comprehensive. I've not tried the AC3 wheels, but absolutely love my Diamante ones. Being tubular's, they are for dry weather climbing/descending (and work brilliantly in light rain/passing showers). If really inclement weather is forecast, I put on my Shamal C17 clinchers anyway.
