UltraRear SLX 139g Tension limits...drifting to 12 8 Lacing

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

Tension limits from their manual:

Hub maximum spoke tension: Drive Side 160Kgf Left Side 70Kgf
In any case never exceed the maximum tension recommended


Image

Viewing the hub.. the NDS material between the hole and flange edge appears same.. if not marginally
more the DS.

160 kgf x 12 gives 1920 total kgf for DS... NDS rated 70 x 12 gives 840 kgf.

Building stats:

Hub: UltraRear SLX 139g, rear

Left flange ⌀: 33 mm
Right flange ⌀: 52 mm
Centre to left: 42 mm
Centre to right: 19 mm
Spoke hole ⌀: 2.4 mm
Rim: Kinlin XR-200

ERD ⌀: 594 mm
OSB: 0 mm
Size: 700C
Tension for 24 spokes

Crosses Spoke length left Spoke lenght right Tension ratio L/R
0 282.4 270.5 43%
1 284.7 274.2 44%
2 290.9 284.3 44%
NDS tension at low 40's % of DS is one of the lowest I have ran data on.

I wonder.. why the 70 kgf limit?

In my plan I'd use only 8 of NDS holes at 800 total kgf.. 100 each.
Last edited by WinterRider on Tue May 23, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mr4fox
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 2:01 pm

by mr4fox

160kgf drive side?? That's loads!!

My Extralite Cyber rear hub is only 100kgf +/-10 on the drive side!!!...ofc I built it to 110 ;)
Which results in abou 48-50kgf on the non drive side.

I have 2:1 lacing on a Tune Mag170 which sounds like what you're planning to do. it's been bomb proof for well over 30000 hard km's. At 172g It's also quite a bit heavier than Extralite hubs though...not sure if that equates to a stronger NDS flange or not though.







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ergott
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by ergott

I swear sometimes tension recommendations are pulled out of thin air. Assuming the best and it was properly researched (if properly researched they would have used better left flange spacing but I digress), it could be a concern for warping the bearing bore since they are so light.

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

[quote="ergott"]I swear sometimes tension recommendations are pulled out of thin air. Assuming the best and it was properly researched (if properly researched they would have used better left flange spacing but I digress), it could be a concern for warping the bearing bore since they are so light. ]

That's in the vein I'm thinking... too much overall kgf on the hub would bend.. or twist it.. warp if you will.

That width would give good bracing angle... and my plan is along the lines of a triplet. All my riders are some form of triplet.

NOT a hub in my sights.. at least today. Maybe another time.

Current 'lab' is a 12-8 lacing. Did one all radial which I am riding now.. heavy rim w heavy spokes. Yet next one likely 1-2x with 1x NDS... light components.

160 kgf.. the rims I've encountered with the spoke pulling thru rim measured 150 kgf and above. 160 seems well over the line. My 16/8 triplet is around 100 each side w Sapim Lasers. The radial 12-8 is 70-95.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

WinterRider wrote:Tension limits from their manual:

Hub maximum spoke tension: Drive Side 160Kgf Left Side 70Kgf
In any case never exceed the maximum tension recommended


Image

Viewing the hub.. the NDS material between the hole and flange edge appears same.. if not marginally
more the DS.

160 kgf x 12 gives 1920 total kgf for DS... NDS rated 70 x 12 gives 840 kgf.

Building stats:

Hub: UltraRear SLX 139g, rear

Left flange ⌀: 33 mm
Right flange ⌀: 52 mm
Centre to left: 42 mm
Centre to right: 19 mm
Spoke hole ⌀: 2.4 mm
Rim: Kinlin XR-200

ERD ⌀: 594 mm
OSB: 0 mm
Size: 700C
Tension for 24 spokes

Crosses Spoke length left Spoke lenght right Tension ratio L/R
0 282.4 270.5 43%
1 284.7 274.2 44%
2 290.9 284.3 44%
NDS tension at low 40's % of DS is one of the lowest I have ran data on.

I wonder.. why the 70 kgf limit?

In my plan I'd use only 8 of NDS holes at 800 total kgf.. 100 each.



Not sure where you are getting your tesion ratios from but my calculator is dialimg up very different numbers on HED Belgium rims Image


Raidial non drive calculating at 73% which is pretty darn high.
With 110-115kgf ( more than enough for an alloy wheel ) and a radial ND using all the spoke holes you'll end up with a very well balanaced wheel.
For it make sense as a triplet hub that ND spacing should be out another 10mm and I'd want it drilled to suit The application. I don't think exceeding the limits set by extralite and only using every second hole is a wise corse of action. I deal with them a lot and they know what they are doing

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

for the J bend flanged hubs it is actually 1100N tension limit for the DS rear. 700N for the front. fairly restrictive. the SP hubs have a higher tension limit.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

bm0p700f wrote:for the J bend flanged hubs it is actually 1100N tension limit for the DS rear. 700N for the front. fairly restrictive. the SP hubs have a higher tension limit.



This is a new hub with a better NDS balance and higher tension limits. I'd use it with the sp front over the SL personally. The original SL hubs are way to lower on the tension limits for my tastes. This new hub is a big improvement though

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

"Not sure where you are getting your tesion ratios from but my calculator is dialimg up very different numbers on HED Belgium rims" writes sugarkane.

My data from EDD.. written via Rinard's SpocCalc.. using a center drilled rim. Data for tension is always spot on.. when tension is checked after the build.

No matter how one slice's it via a center drilled rim.. a 42-19 spacing in flange design means a weak left side. Heads out does help some left side... yet does that not compromise bracing angle.(?)

The 160 kgf rt side spec.. I wonder if a typo (which I doubt). To be clear.. looks like one interesting hub for some applications.. their website is so well laid out. I did email for an explainer on the tension.. Saturday. Thought I might learn something in the end. :beerchug:

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

Sorry I though you were using the numbers from the new v2 hub that has the 32mm Center to left and it's the hub that has the 160kgf DS tension limit that's why we are getting different numbers.

As far as I know the data on the info pages is more accurate than PDF files.. :D

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

sugarkane wrote:Sorry I though you were using the numbers from the new v2 hub that has the 32mm Center to left and it's the hub that has the 160kgf DS tension limit that's why we are getting different numbers.

As far as I know the data on the info pages is more accurate than PDF files.. :D


Done that myself... spoke order input using wrong cross no less......... :mrgreen:

Methinks per the company 160/70.. most users using a traditional lacing.. which they show per warranty specs on the PDF how one MUST lace to stay under warranty. Width of hub means a 160/70 ratio.. so really their limiting DS to give something above the 'shake loose' zone on the left. That ratio applied to triplet would give me 105/91 left for 2/1.. 12/8 at 105/69 left.. which is under warranty limit left. That'd work. :thumbup:


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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

We could revise this or another thread... 'Why Triplet's ROCK'.

Used to visit/post on vanilla 'wheel' sites were the keyboard queens built their wheels that are never road. Your average carbon unit does not get it... same ol same ol is the order of the day. I do understand that.. yet with the gears and rear width today .. if one has the ability to write those checks for four/five figures for equipment ... one should be able to get it.

Lateral stiffness is the attack vs 'trips'. NOT meaning to stir the pot.. that just does not wash. Poking a stationary wheel to measure stiffness is a marketing angle. I see all flavor of 2/1's in pics per pro riding... they DO measure up in real riding conditions.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

There are some draw backs but I firmly believe thy are out weighed by the benefits

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

sugarkane wrote:There are some draw backs but I firmly believe they are outweighed by the benefits


IMO a no-brainer. Riding conventional lacing on the rear is in essence like riding half a wheel.. the left lazy side just along for the ride if you will. Dropping to 50% NDS and now well below that using realistic tension levels on the DS... is for me unacceptable.

Not having to crank right tension so high to get something deemed acceptable for tension left is a main benefit. I believe high tension.. that well above 120 kgf.. only means less wheel life and durability. Tension balance then becomes very critical.. one spoke tensioned above average range for that tension is going to fatigue/break much sooner.

Sometime back I viewed some online video of wheels being tested under load. Has anyone run tests comparing triplet laced rears to conventional lacing under load/power? I'd be interested to see that link/s.

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ergott
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by ergott

To really reap the benefits of triplet you need:

1) left flange wide enough to regain lost stiffness due to fewer spokes.
2) rim drilled with spoke holes angled to wider left flange spacing.
3) still need good right side flange spacing (all hubs need this).
4) stiff enough rim to support uneven pulling of spokes (2 to the right for each left)

Since the left tension is double what it would be with a traditional build, you can move the flange far to the left. The issue becomes an extreme angle with the rim which gets worse with high profile rims. If you drill the rim accordingly you end up having problems trying to build the wheel, especially with internal nipples. You can't get the wrench on the end if it's pointed towards the flange. It would be better with external nipples. Then the issue can be if the rim bed can support the spoke load which is now more to the side.

If you look only one aspect of a wheel and ignore the rest you can easily paint yourself into a corner and end up worse than you started. The issues people complain about with a traditionally spoked wheel are overblown. You can make a perfectly strong rear wheel with 12 spokes on each side, both with a crossed pattern. Just put the flange spacing at a good compromise between lateral stiffness and tension ratio. I think 38mm/18mm with an offset spoke bed would be great. If you rule out offset spoke bed (shame there aren't more) then I'd like to see 34mm/18mm. Those numbers are for the center of the flange don't forget. Many hub companies post center of flange to outside of flange number because it looks better. If Extralite are claiming 19mm I doubt it's center to center because that can lead to interference with the rear mech, especially with shallower rims. I have one prototype hub that is a true 19mm center to center laced to a 65mm rim. It's awfully close to having the mech hit the spokes. Any frame flex will cause them to rub. As a wheel (or wheel component) manufacturer you can't put out products that have this potential issue. Most hubs have settled on 16.2-17mm. I've ridden with 18mm hub with several different rims (using Alchemy hubs) with a few different bikes. I make a point of really rocking the bike in the lowest gear up a hill to check for this.

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