Stiff alloy tubular wheelset for climbs?

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
racingcondor
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by racingcondor

The problem with the Open Pro Tubular rim is that it's not actually 360g (that's the advertised weight). The ones I bought a couple of months back came in 400g each. I like the wheels I built with them but I used them as a light substitute for a Nemesis rather than building something light with them.

Better choice would be Velocity Escapes if you can get hold of them. 370g and thanks to the V profile a whole lot stiffer so for me at 68kg 24/28 spokes makes for a very stiff wheel and even on DA hubs come in at around 1,380g. If you wanted lighter plenty could be saved from the hubs.

From memory of others comments the HED are well made but very pricey and not light.

addictR1
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by addictR1

racingcondor wrote:The problem with the Open Pro Tubular rim is that it's not actually 360g (that's the advertised weight). The ones I bought a couple of months back came in 400g each. I like the wheels I built with them but I used them as a light substitute for a Nemesis rather than building something light with them.

Better choice would be Velocity Escapes if you can get hold of them. 370g and thanks to the V profile a whole lot stiffer so for me at 68kg 24/28 spokes makes for a very stiff wheel and even on DA hubs come in at around 1,380g. If you wanted lighter plenty could be saved from the hubs.

From memory of others comments the HED are well made but very pricey and not light.


i see the veolocity available:
http://store.velocityusa.com/p/escape-7 ... cape?pp=12

looks like they have 18,20,24,32. what spokes did you mate it up with?

Multebear
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by Multebear

^^ good info :goodpost:

racingcondor
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by racingcondor

I've got 2 sets of wheels with Escapes.
24/28 with Dura Ace 9000 hubs and CX Rays 1,380g
28/28 with Chris King and again CX Rays 1,350g

Both are more than stiff enough for me (68kg, not a very good racer), no discernable flex, no brake rub and the only time I've had to tru either wheelset was after a crash that put me in hospital.

The rims aren't very refined (spoke hole drillings aren't all that clean etc) but they're cheap (compared to HED and Ambrosio), strong enough, light and relatively low volume sales so not exactly a money spinner.

addictR1
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by addictR1

Sweet! What's the thickness for CX Rays?

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ergott
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by ergott

kgt wrote:Any idea why a wheelset with HED Belgium C2 will be lighter, stiffer and feel less sluggish?


The Montreal and Nemesis rims are low profile and have very little radial stiffness. This results in loads concentrating locally when stressed. A rim like the Hed Belgium is taller, heavier (than Montreal, about the same as Nemesis), and more rounded spoke bed profile. It's a stiffer structure so more spokes are supporting concentrated loads. That will give you a snappier acceleration and the wheel will be stiffer even if you use fewer spokes. You also have a lesser chance of spokes going slack when hitting big holes or cobbles.

Secondly, the current Record and Dura Ace hubs don't have the greatest flange placement. The Wheels Manufacturing hubs mentioned (formerly Alchemy) have wider spaced flanges than both so all other things being equal, the wheels will be laterally stiffer.

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kgt
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by kgt

So, to sum up:
Lighter?
No
Stiffer?
I can accept that Hed Belgium rim will be stiffer but we have seen how little role the radial stiffness of the rim plays since the tires absorb most of the energy. Torsional stiffness is important but that has almost nothing to do with the rim.
Feel less slugish?
Acceleration has also little to do with radial stiffness. Practically a lighter Ambrosio rim will accelerate easier (less inertia) and feel lighter.

I would also add that a lower profile rim will feel much better when going downhill since it will track the tarmac better (it will be more elastic). I would also think that Record and DA hubs will roll smoother and last longer than Alchemy hubs.

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ergott
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by ergott

kgt wrote:So, to sum up:
Lighter?
No
Stiffer?
I can accept that Hed Belgium rim will be stiffer but we have seen how little role the radial stiffness of the rim plays since the tires absorb most of the energy. Torsional stiffness is important but that has almost nothing to do with the rim.
Feel less slugish?
Acceleration has also little to do with radial stiffness. Practically a lighter Ambrosio rim will accelerate easier (less inertia) and feel lighter.

I would also add that a lower profile rim will feel much better when going downhill since it will track the tarmac better (it will be more elastic). I would also think that Record and DA hubs will roll smoother and last longer than Alchemy hubs.



So radial stiffness of the rim is a small factor as you first state, but shallow rims descend faster they are more elastic? How come the tire doesn't play the same factor in that instance?

The overall improved stiffness of the Belgium rim means that more spokes are sharing localized loads both radially and laterally. Because of this, the rims can be used in a lower spoke count. Because of this the wheels will be lighter.

How do you have an opinion of the Wheels Manufacturing wheels and how they roll? Do you have them? Are you aware the design was modified recently to adress preload adjusting? There are only two cartridge bearings spinning when you pedal compared to the 4 in a Campagnolo hub. Roll smoother is a red herring anyway. They don't require any significant watts to roll compared to the many other frictions a rider must overcome.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Ergott: while you're here I'm hoping I can get your thoughts on this. You said the new WheelsMfg (Alchemy) hubs have a better flange spacing than either Dura-Ace or Record hubs. Let me limit my question to just the Record hubs since that's what I know. Would it be just the non drive side that is wider? I ask because I build record hubs with low profile (i.e., Nemesis) rims using DT Comps 3x both sides, with pulling spokes heads out. All set up with Campy the rear derailleur is very close to the spokes. Standing hard climbs I can hear the slight ping of the derailleur cage grazing the spokes. So, seems that if the DS flange is even wider than the current Record, and the cassette remains in the same place in space, then that situation I describe with the spokes and derailleur cage might become even worse. Does that make sense? Really only a concern with very low profile wheels where the angle of the spokes (flange to rim) is lowest, versus most rims these days are not that shallow. Thoughts?
Last edited by Calnago on Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kgt
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by kgt

@Ergott:
I did not write 'descent faster'. IME a low profile alu rim with 32 spokes feel more elastic than higher profile alu rims with fewer spokes. You may have another opinion, no problem.
Considering the weights you are free to upload some images in order for us to compare actual weights.

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ergott
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by ergott

kgt wrote:So, to sum up:
Lighter?
No
Stiffer?
I can accept that Hed Belgium rim will be stiffer but we have seen how little role the radial stiffness of the rim plays since the tires absorb most of the energy. Torsional stiffness is important but that has almost nothing to do with the rim.
Feel less slugish?
Acceleration has also little to do with radial stiffness. Practically a lighter Ambrosio rim will accelerate easier (less inertia) and feel lighter.

I would also add that a lower profile rim will feel much better when going downhill since it will track the tarmac better (it will be more elastic). I would also think that Record and DA hubs will roll smoother and last longer than Alchemy hubs.


kgt wrote:@Ergott:
I did not write 'descent faster'. IME a low profile alu rim with 32 spokes feel more elastic than higher profile alu rims with fewer spokes. You may have another opinion, no problem.
Considering the weights you are free to upload some images in order for us to compare actual weights.


You can't have it both ways.

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ergott
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by ergott

Calnago wrote:@Ergott: while you're here I'm hoping I can get your thoughts on this. You said the new WheelsMfg (Alchemy) hubs have a better flange spacing than either Dura-Ace or Record hubs. Let me limit my question to just the Record hubs since that's what I know. Would it be just the non drive side that is wider? I ask because I build record hubs with low profile (i.e., Nemesis) rims using DT Comps 3x both sides, with pulling spokes heads out. All set up with Campy the rear derailleur is very close to the spokes. Standing hard climbs I can hear the slight ping of the derailleur cage grazing the spokes. So, seems that if the DS flange is even wider than the current Record, and the cassette remains in the same place in space, then that situation I describe with the spokes and derailleur cage might become even worse. Does that make sense? Really only a concern with very low profile wheels where the angle of the spokes (flange to rim) is lowest, versus most rims these days are not that shallow. Thoughts?


Like I mentioned above, you get more localized flex with those rims. The fact that the angle brings the spokes closer and the lower lateral stiffness both work against that particular setup. The Alchemy hub is about 1mm wider on the right side so potentially you can have a little more rub than you are already experiencing. If you were to have a 32 spoke Record or Alchemy hub laced to a Hed Belgium tubular which is only marginally taller in profile you would be far less likely to have clearance issues.




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ergott
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by ergott

This is a great read with regards to wheel stiffness.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunkin ... _3449.html

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Calnago
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by Calnago

ergott wrote:
Calnago wrote:@Ergott: while you're here I'm hoping I can get your thoughts on this. You said the new WheelsMfg (Alchemy) hubs have a better flange spacing than either Dura-Ace or Record hubs. Let me limit my question to just the Record hubs since that's what I know. Would it be just the non drive side that is wider? I ask because I build record hubs with low profile (i.e., Nemesis) rims using DT Comps 3x both sides, with pulling spokes heads out. All set up with Campy the rear derailleur is very close to the spokes. Standing hard climbs I can hear the slight ping of the derailleur cage grazing the spokes. So, seems that if the DS flange is even wider than the current Record, and the cassette remains in the same place in space, then that situation I describe with the spokes and derailleur cage might become even worse. Does that make sense? Really only a concern with very low profile wheels where the angle of the spokes (flange to rim) is lowest, versus most rims these days are not that shallow. Thoughts?


Like I mentioned above, you get more localized flex with those rims. The fact that the angle brings the spokes closer and the lower lateral stiffness both work against that particular setup. The Alchemy hub is about 1mm wider on the right side so potentially you can have a little more rub than you are already experiencing. If you were to have a 32 spoke Record or Alchemy hub laced to a Hed Belgium tubular which is only marginally taller in profile you would be far less likely to have clearance issues.

Thanks... that pretty much was my thinking as well. 1mm wider flange on the drive side, while retaining the cassette in it's point in space (and where else could it go really), would be too much imo for the setup I just described. Under stress with a heavier rider, the derailleur could potentially have a bit of a run in with the spokes. So, while they may work out fine for taller rims, I would not risk these hubs with a setup as I described, which by the way, is one of my favorites to actually ride on. I have found the Record hubs to be pretty much perfect in every way as long as you want a classic 32 spoke Campy wheel, which I guess few do these days. But the drive side flange spacing with current 11speed groups is pretty much at the limit as it is should you want to use a very low profile rim with it. At least that's what I think.

Oh, I should add that on the wheelset I am getting the occasional grazing "ping", the non drive side spokes are DT Revolutions. Do you think that using DT Comps on the non drive side might help this issue a little bit? I have other wheelsets of the same build with DT Comps both sides so I can test it out for myself for sure at some point. I think if it helps then I'd prefer Comps on both DS and NDS rear, so long as they are all very evenly tensioned (as much as possible), over using DT Revs on the non drive side. I guess in theory the Revs might not go slack as easily under the lower tension of the drive side, but I've found that with proper even tension, I've not had an issue with the Comps in this regard. So, for the sake of a few grams, if it makes the wheel a teensy bit more laterally stiff, that's the way I'm going to go.
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ergott
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by ergott

The potential problem is that if you go to stiffer spoke on the left there's a greater chance of them going slack. This is splitting hairs a bit, but worth noting. If you swapped the rim to a Hed you'd solve the problem.



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