Disc brake wheelset decision: Enve SES 3.4 4.5AR 5.6

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
martinkartin
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:21 am

by martinkartin

Just read about the 105% larger rim to tire rule. Must check that out on my bikes to see if I can shuffle some tires around to try a more aero setup.
Factor O2 Disc Romain Bardet Limited Edition

by Weenie


jlok
Posts: 1060
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Enve has just confirmed through email that Vittoria 28c Corsa TLR / Corsa Control TLR / Rubino Pro TLR are all compatible with the SES 4.5 AR.

edit: just found that they are testing GP5k TL as well.

Incompatible/Not Recommended Tires
Any Tube-Type/Non-Tubeless Tires
Continental GP 5000 TL (pending testing)
Pirelli Cinturato Velo
All Specialized Tubeless Road Tires
Last edited by jlok on Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

youjettisonme
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:38 am

by youjettisonme

jlok wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:55 am
Enve has just confirmed through email that Vittoria 28c Corsa TLR / Corsa Control TLR / Rubino Pro TLR are all compatible with the SES 4.5 AR.
Ohhh, that's interesting and welcome news in relation to my hookless Extralite Cyberdiscs. I mounted some non-TLR Conti 5000s on there for now, and I'm a little bit worried about safety. This looks like a great option.

jlok
Posts: 1060
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

And Enve has just sent an "Consumer Safety Bulletin" stressing that natural fibre sidewall and open tubular tires are to avoid on their trims. They specifically singled out Vittoria Corsa Non-Tubeless (Not ALL Vittoria Tires) plus Challenge Handmade Clinchers – These are Open Tubular Non-Vulcanized Tires Models:  Criterium SC S, Strada SC S, Paris Roubaix SC S, Strada PRO, Paris Roubaix PRO, Elite PRO.
Dear,  

Thank you for riding ENVE. We hope that you are thoroughly enjoying your ENVE SES wheelset(s). 

Based on reports from the field that tires with cotton, silk, or other natural fiber sidewalls with open tubular style of construction were degrading quicker than expected, we launched a study to understand the validity and prevalence of these claims. As a result of this investigation, we confirmed that tires using natural sidewall materials with an open tubular type construction, are not fit for use with ENVE carbon rims. It is important to note that through this study, we reached out to many dealers as well as other wheel manufacturers to see if their consumers are having the same results as ours. The response was an unequivocal confirmation that these tires were fatiguing prematurely and in some cases resulting in crashes and injury to the rider when the tire sidewall failed or the tire came off the rim without warning. 

There are two specific failure modes that have been documented and are not limited to ENVE rims, rather these failures have been consistent in our test lab on a variety of other manufacture’s rims, both alloy and carbon. 

The first failure is best defined as a cut or wearing through of the natural fibers on the sidewall of the tire at or near the rim’s hook bead. Once cut through, the tube extrudes through the tear and bursts, often unseating the tire from the rim resulting in sudden loss of control and a crash. The cutting of the sidewall is the result of soft fibers (the cotton or similar textile) being abraded by the harder edge of the rim during the rotational compression cycles of wheel and tire. 

The second failure mode is that of the tire itself stretching off the rim. This is can be caused by a variety of factors, among them, low bead stiffness, varying tire diameters, over inflation, or some combo of the three. The tires most susceptible to this failure are those with a “handmade open tubular” type construction. Given the large selection of tires on the market that deliver excellent performance with reliability, it is our recommendation that ENVE customers should not pair these tires with their ENVE wheelsets.

Here are some specific brand/tire models that we do not recommend:

Vittoria Corsa Non-Tubeless (Not ALL Vittoria Tires) – This tire features cotton sidewalls in black, para (tan), and anthracite (gray). This tire has been described to us by Vittoria as a race day only type of tire and that it is not recommended for training or prolonged use. This tire has been the main offender for cut sidewalls. While this one tire is not recommended for use with ENVE wheels, Vittoria’s Rubino model tires and the tubeless ready Corsa Speed have proven safe and reliable in our testing. 

Challenge Handmade Clinchers – These are Open Tubular Non-Vulcanized Tires

Models:  Criterium SC S, Strada SC S, Paris Roubaix SC S, Strada PRO, Paris Roubaix PRO, Elite PRO

If you have further questions, or a specific tire that you would like to see tested and approved, please contact your ENVE Customer Service Representative at 877-358-2869. 

Sincerely, 

ENVE Composites

Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Wonder how Turbo cotton and Veloflex escaped the list?

Rode my 7.8s for the first time today, windy AF and very impressive. Image
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sychen
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by sychen

That allez paint job looks amazing.. Those 7.8s are thicc!

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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Yeah the frame is anodized so no annoying chips ;)
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Nefarious86 wrote:Wonder how Turbo cotton and Veloflex escaped the list?
That’s a good question. Veloflex already has a warning against using their clinchers on carbon rims, so maybe ENVE figures their ass is already covered on that front. I don’t know about any such warnings for the Turbo Cottons, but they certainly qualify as part of their “ Open Tubular” catchall, and it would be even more embarrassing if they specifically called out all of the best riding clinchers as not to be used on their rims, hence the “Open Tubular” catchall. I put a set of the Turbo Cotton clinchers on a few weeks ago and was super impressed with just how supple the sidewalls are. They seem to be very nice clinchers. But, given that suppleness, they would definitely be prone to being cut if up against a sharp edge.

Re your new bike, is that actually an “anodization” versus paint. Very nice. And size 58?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Yep, black and green anno.
58cm and dropped from a 120 to a 110 -10° stem to suit the aeronova bars.
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spdntrxi
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I've been using Turbo Cottons with Enve rims for years ... I get about 3k miles out of a tire roughly.. then tossed.

groover08
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:10 pm

by groover08

I cannot decide between the 5.6s on 28mm rubber, and the 4.5s on 28mm rubber for my next build. My focus is 3h+ rides on rolling terrain, occasional serious climb, always on pavement. Has anyone here ridden both and can comment on how they differ?

spdntrxi
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

this is a thread about disk brake rims so I assume you are asking about disc... it's probably a wash.

Aero (rim) 5.6 slight advantage due to being deeper
Aero (tire) using 28s on both the wider 4.5AR will likely give a better aero tire/rim interface.
Weight.. the are so close to the same

I've never had 28 on my 5.6.. so I cant comment. Only 25's as they are usually on my TT/Tri bike. I have Schwalbe Pro- Ones in 28 on my 4.5 and it's a very comfortable ride @ 60 or so psi. Since the weight is the same and the aero is probably slightly better on the 5.6 and you get a broader range of tires to choose from > 5.6

groover08
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:10 pm

by groover08

spdntrxi wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:08 pm
this is a thread about disk brake rims so I assume you are asking about disc... it's probably a wash.

Aero (rim) 5.6 slight advantage due to being deeper
Aero (tire) using 28s on both the wider 4.5AR will likely give a better aero tire/rim interface.
Weight.. the are so close to the same

I've never had 28 on my 5.6.. so I cant comment. Only 25's as they are usually on my TT/Tri bike. I have Schwalbe Pro- Ones in 28 on my 4.5 and it's a very comfortable ride @ 60 or so psi. Since the weight is the same and the aero is probably slightly better on the 5.6 and you get a broader range of tires to choose from > 5.6
That’s a great response, thank you very much. May I ask one more question - what’s your experience been with fitting the Schwalbe Pro Ones on the 4.5 AR? I’ve heard horror stories about how difficult this is.

spdntrxi
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

there were not terrible.. maybe 6/10. I had a much tougher time when I tried Schwalbe Pro-One 25c on Enve 2.2 rims.

by Weenie


jlok
Posts: 1060
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Just a quick update from enve.com. For 4.5 AR, Vittoria Corsa TLR, Corsa Control TLR and Rubino Pro TLR in 28/30c become Approved/Recommended. GP5000TL become Incompatible/Not Recommended from Pending Testing.

btw, I have tried GravelKing 32c on the rear 4.5 AR and it is 35mm effective at 50psi. Quite easy to mount, just easy effort from two levers, plus soapy water and booster.
Approved/Recommended Tires

28c for the best aerodynamic performance
Vittoria Rubino Pro TLR
Schwalbe Pro One
Kenda Valkyrie TLR
Mavic Yksion Pro UST
Hutchinson Sector
Hutchinson Intensive 2
Maxxis Padrone
IRC Formula Pro (RBCC, Light, X-Guard)
Vittoria Corsa TLR
Vittoria Corsa Control TLR
Goodyear Eagle All Season
Maxxis Rouler TR
Teravail Rampart
Bontrager AW2 Hard-Case Lite TLR

30c
Schwalbe Pro One
WTB Exposure
Vittoria Corsa Control TLR
Goodyear Eagle All Season
Kenda Valkyrie TLR
Vittoria Rubino Pro TLR
Schwalbe G One Speed
Mavic Yksion Elite Allroad

32c
Panaracer GravelKing
Hutchinson Sector
WTB Exposure
Bontrager R3 Hard-Case Lite TLR
Goodyear Eagle All Season
Donnelly USH
Maxxis Refuse
Teravail Rampart

33 – 50c or Treaded
These tires are compatible but drastically reduce the aerodynamic benefit and will be better suited to our G23.

Incompatible/Not Recommended Tires
Any Tube-Type/Non-Tubeless Tires
Continental GP 5000 TL
Specialized S-Works Turbo 2Bliss
Specialized Roubaix Pro 2Bliss
Pirelli Cinturato Velo
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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