Disc brake wheelset decision: Enve SES 3.4 4.5AR 5.6

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4173
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

spdntrxi wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:18 pm
my memory is foggy.. but is it not 105% rim width... since 4.5ar are like 30.5 wide that would be 32.. so it's pretty much perfect.

The rim should be at least 105% the width of the tire, not the other way around. That’s for optimal crosswind performance. For shallow yaw angles, a tire measuring 30mm should be fine, so just don’t buy severely oversized “28c” tires like the Pro One and buy the “25c” version instead...or buy Fusion 5s in the claimed size.

by Weenie


spdntrxi
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:26 pm
spdntrxi wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:18 pm
my memory is foggy.. but is it not 105% rim width... since 4.5ar are like 30.5 wide that would be 32.. so it's pretty much perfect.

The rim should be at least 105% the width of the tire, not the other way around. That’s for optimal crosswind performance. For shallow yaw angles, a tire measuring 30mm should be fine, so just don’t buy severely oversized “28c” tires like the Pro One and buy the “25c” version instead...or buy Fusion 5s in the claimed size.
like I said foggy... my pro-one are currently 31.7.. I will try GP5000 in 28 when I wear these schwalbes out

petromyzon
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

I got the rule from this blog post, among others. I understand that it is not a hard and fast study but a rule of thumb, but it does seem to suggest that the benefits are relevant even in a low-yaw condition.
https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-5-t ... rodynamics

I cannot square the results with the tyre recommendations (copied in below) from ENVE. Josh Poertner makes the distinction between "caliper measured tyre width" and labelled width. ENVE do not. Clearly their tubular profile fitted with a 28mm tub (which in my limited experience of Vittoria Corsa G+ run true to size) will be a very different aerodynamic proposition than their clinchers.

Even more interestingly, the new Conti tubeless has been added to "not recommended". I love the idea behind the 4.5AR but the restrictions they are placing are considerable when considered alongside the price and we aren't party to the testing that has informed them. I have seen many pictures online of people using non-tubeless and non-approved tubeless tyres, including on the ENVE Instagram (which frustrated me!) - but what kind of risks are those users taking?

--------------------------------------------SNIP from ENVE website
We have designed this wheel to be used with a minimum of 28c tires rated for tubeless use whether you are using tubes or sealant. Below is a list of approved tires that will result in the best aerodynamics and safety when paired with the 4.5 AR.

Approved/Recommended Tires

28c for the best aerodynamic performance
Schwalbe Pro one
Kenda Valkyrie TLR
Mavic Yksion Pro UST
Hutchinson Sector
Hutchinson Intensive 2
Maxxis Padrone
IRC Formula Pro (RBCC, Light, X-Guard)
Goodyear Eagle All Season
Teravail Rampart
Bontrager AW2 Hard-Case Lite TLR

30c
WTB Exposure
Goodyear Eagle All Season
Kenda Valkyrie TLR
Schwalbe G One Speed
Mavic Yksion Elite Allroad

32c
Hutchinson Sector
WTB Exposure
Goodyear Eagle All Season
Donnelly USH
Maxxis Refuse
Teravail Rampart

33 – 50c
These sizes are compatible but drastically reduce the aerodynamic benefit and will be better suited to our G23.

Incompatible/Not Recommended Tires
Any Tube-Type/Non-Tubeless Tires
Continental GP 5000 TL
Pirelli Cinturato Velo
All Specialized Tubeless Road Tires

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4173
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I'm surprised the Hutchinson Fusions aren't on the list. Continental seems to agree with ENVE...the sidewall of the GP 5000 TL even says not to install the tire on a hookless rim. I bet in real life nothing bad will happen, especially at sane tubeless tire pressures, but if you want to stick to the approved list, I would choose the 28mm Mavic Yksion Pro UST.

jlok
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

I'm sure the Fusion 5 Performance was included in the approved list, otherwise I wouldn't use it.

On the other hand I really wanna try 25c Pro One on the 4.5AR.

Update: Below reply from Enve support........
Thanks for reaching out. Your tires are likely good to go. When I was going through the list to update it, I went to Hutchinson's Site and found no documentation that they made any of the Fusion Models in a 28 Tubeless. Only that they were coming soon. If they released them and did not update their website then I'm sure they are a fantastic pair for the 4.5 AR. Please make sure you indeed have the TLR version though.

https://www.hutchinsontires.com/en/road ... 1-standard
https://www.hutchinsontires.com/en/road ... 1-standard
https://www.hutchinsontires.com/en/road ... 1-standard

Last edited by jlok on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

dcorn
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:21 pm
Location: NoVA

by dcorn

Ooooo, I have 32mm Hutchinson Sectors currently on some 17mm internal width wheels, they measure 30mm and bulge out quite a bit. I haven't had any issues in over 1k miles, but I'd love to see how wide these suckers are on the AR's. They have measured 32mm wide on a 21mm internal width wheel, so I figured they'll be a bit wider than that on something 24-25mm width.

spdntrxi
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

ahh man GP5000 on the not reco list .. so much for those being on my "next" list

petromyzon
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

Also IIRC GP4000 used to be the only non-tubeless tyre on the list and now it isn't there any more....
Would be interesting to know if there have been a lot of failures.
With the rumours of Conti and others collaborating to define a road tubeless specification it would be interesting to see if "mount only on hooked rims" will be part of it.

ooo
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

by ooo

weights info for enve listed tires 28c, 30c, 32c + same tires in size 25c
real weights and catalog weights (I can update table, if you have more weight numbers)

Image

update: jlok & spdntrxi info
Last edited by ooo on Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:46 am, edited 9 times in total.
'

jlok
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Fusion 5 Performance TLR 28c can be used according to Enve support. 273g and 267g from my pair.
Last edited by jlok on Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

spdntrxi
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

my 30 g-speed weighed 346g :(

scb
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 4:16 pm

by scb

Going to try out Schwalbe Pro 1 in 28s for 3.4 and 5.6 disc. Will weigh when I get them. Also learned CK hubs are not an option with Campy free hubs and thru axle--so had to go with DT Swiss hubs.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4173
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Using 28mm Pro Ones on 5.6s negates the benefit you get from extra depth.

scb
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 4:16 pm

by scb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:55 pm
Using 28mm Pro Ones on 5.6s negates the benefit you get from extra depth.
Yah thought of that too but I was convinced by shop to give it a try. We will see.

by Weenie


TLN
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:55 pm
Using 28mm Pro Ones on 5.6s negates the benefit you get from extra depth.
So pretty much if I wanna run 28c and have optimal aerodynamics I must be looking at 30+width? Roval CL32/50/64, Enve 4.5AR or Hollowgram KNOT64?

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