Vision Metron 40s: spoke tension even overall but way above spec?

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gvnfnc77
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by gvnfnc77

Orlok wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote:
mattr wrote:Yeah, you're also measuring the load needed to twist the spoke over quite a short span.

Should be measuring through the flat faces, rather than edge to edge, or your readings will be hugely high.




Whit his way the result is...hugely low btw :-/

https://imgur.com/a/OIXfL
No tension at all.? What is the size of the blade sides and metal of the spokes that are mounted.? When you look at the conversion table livered with the Park Tool you can see the tension in kgf ( 1kgf is 10Nm). :)

For your front wheel (Vision manual 80-100 kgf) it must be ( spoke metal 1,1 x 2 ) 104 kgf = <15 on the Parktool. :|


Yes, no tension at all on "landscape mode" measurement.
Btw, we come back to the initial question.
You're right, <15 on the Parktool following Vision's instructions (and 17 for rear wheel on the drive side...), and i got this result working with the ParkTool TM-1, but...after that, pinching the spokes they feel too lazy, so we are in front on 2 ways:
_Are the ParkTool TM-1s all uncalibrated or Vision/Fsa understimate their spokes tension?

(and even yes, spokes of my Vision measure 1,1x2mm)

I own other 2 Vision wheelset with same spokes (yes, same blade spokes..same measurement 1,1x2mm, and same 2:1 ratio, on trimax 30 and t30), and measument picked on the original wheels are on the ParkTool 22 for the front wheel and rear wheel (non drive side) and 24,5..on the rear wheel on the drive side.

by Weenie


mattr
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by mattr

I'd say it's probably time to get them off to a decent wheel builder for a look over.....

gvnfnc77
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Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:19 pm

by gvnfnc77

mattr wrote:I'd say it's probably time to get them off to a decent wheel builder for a look over.....


Thanks but out off topic (a little bit), thread is clear, and TM-1 is used also by many decent wheel builders, non all the mechanics uses the DT Swiss or the Sapim/Pillar tensiometer.

>> btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb32h4PK_aU&t=206s

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Orlok
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by Orlok

gvnfnc77 wrote:
Orlok wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote:
mattr wrote:Yeah, you're also measuring the load needed to twist the spoke over quite a short span.

Should be measuring through the flat faces, rather than edge to edge, or your readings will be hugely high.




Whit his way the result is...hugely low btw :-/

https://imgur.com/a/OIXfL
No tension at all.? What is the size of the blade sides and metal of the spokes that are mounted.? When you look at the conversion table livered with the Park Tool you can see the tension in kgf ( 1kgf is 10Nm). :)

For your front wheel (Vision manual 80-100 kgf) it must be ( spoke metal 1,1 x 2 ) 104 kgf = <15 on the Parktool. :|


Yes, no tension at all on "landscape mode" measurement.
Btw, we come back to the initial question.
You're right, <15 on the Parktool following Vision's instructions (and 17 for rear wheel on the drive side...), and i got this result working with the ParkTool TM-1, but...after that, pinching the spokes they feel too lazy, so we are in front on 2 ways:
_Are the ParkTool TM-1s all uncalibrated or Vision/Fsa understimate their spokes tension?

(and even yes, spokes of my Vision measure 1,1x2mm)

I own other 2 Vision wheelset with same spokes (yes, same blade spokes..same measurement 1,1x2mm, and same 2:1 ratio, on trimax 30 and t30), and measument picked on the original wheels are on the ParkTool 22 for the front wheel and rear wheel (non drive side) and 24,5..on the rear wheel on the drive side.
Check the sound of the spokes, they must sound a little bit like these on the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cC6MynIUsU
Once comes a time that you'll have a tailwind :D
Pinarello F10 - Ultegra 6800 - Carbonspeed C38 - Tubeless

gvnfnc77
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:19 pm

by gvnfnc77

Orlok wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote:
Orlok wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote:


Whit his way the result is...hugely low btw :-/

https://imgur.com/a/OIXfL
No tension at all.? What is the size of the blade sides and metal of the spokes that are mounted.? When you look at the conversion table livered with the Park Tool you can see the tension in kgf ( 1kgf is 10Nm). :)

For your front wheel (Vision manual 80-100 kgf) it must be ( spoke metal 1,1 x 2 ) 104 kgf = <15 on the Parktool. :|


Yes, no tension at all on "landscape mode" measurement.
Btw, we come back to the initial question.
You're right, <15 on the Parktool following Vision's instructions (and 17 for rear wheel on the drive side...), and i got this result working with the ParkTool TM-1, but...after that, pinching the spokes they feel too lazy, so we are in front on 2 ways:
_Are the ParkTool TM-1s all uncalibrated or Vision/Fsa understimate their spokes tension?

(and even yes, spokes of my Vision measure 1,1x2mm)

I own other 2 Vision wheelset with same spokes (yes, same blade spokes..same measurement 1,1x2mm, and same 2:1 ratio, on trimax 30 and t30), and measument picked on the original wheels are on the ParkTool 22 for the front wheel and rear wheel (non drive side) and 24,5..on the rear wheel on the drive side.
Check the sound of the spokes, they must sound a little bit like these on the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cC6MynIUsU



Thanks mate! Appreciated your tip! :thumbup:

whosatthewheel
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by whosatthewheel

gvnfnc77 wrote:
mattr wrote:I'd say it's probably time to get them off to a decent wheel builder for a look over.....


Thanks but out off topic (a little bit), thread is clear, and TM-1 is used also by many decent wheel builders, non all the mechanics uses the DT Swiss or the Sapim/Pillar tensiometer.

>> btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb32h4PK_aU&t=206s


It's a perfectly good tensiometer, but it needs to be recalibrated. At the time I did mine against a DT for use on DT comp spokes... it was off (over-reading) by roughly 20% in the useful range

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

gvnfnc77 wrote:
mattr wrote:I'd say it's probably time to get them off to a decent wheel builder for a look over.....


Thanks but out off topic (a little bit), thread is clear, and TM-1 is used also by many decent wheel builders, non all the mechanics uses the DT Swiss or the Sapim/Pillar tensiometer.

>> btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb32h4PK_aU&t=206s


A 'decent' wheelbuilder who thinks the tm-1 is good enough isn't worth spendings your money with.. if your that cheap the. There is no way in hell you'd bother with a calibration jiG which means it's worthless.. secondly the readings they give are affected ( a lot ) by the way you release the tool onto the spoke which compounds the inaccuracies. It's a perfectly good for hobby building but for professional builders its an unprofessional tool..!

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ergott
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by ergott

sugarkane wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote: It's a perfectly good for hobby building but for professional builders its an unprofessional tool..!


Yup.

I tried calibrating one and the chart was useless. I created a custom plot for my friend's meter so he could maintain his wheels. The Park chart is NOT for professional use! It's merely better than nothing.

My FSA (pictured) is far more repeatable with readouts and I've plotted all the spokes I routinely use. If anyone considers themself a professional, plotting/calibrating a tensiometer is an absolute must.

Image

gvnfnc77
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by gvnfnc77

ergott wrote:
sugarkane wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote: It's a perfectly good for hobby building but for professional builders its an unprofessional tool..!


Yup.

I tried calibrating one and the chart was useless. I created a custom plot for my friend's meter so he could maintain his wheels. The Park chart is NOT for professional use! It's merely better than nothing.

My FSA (pictured) is far more repeatable with readouts and I've plotted all the spokes I routinely use. If anyone considers themself a professional, plotting/calibrating a tensiometer is an absolute must.

Image



Nice, ...very nice mate!! :thumbup:

gvnfnc77
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:19 pm

by gvnfnc77

sugarkane wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote:
mattr wrote:I'd say it's probably time to get them off to a decent wheel builder for a look over.....


Thanks but out off topic (a little bit), thread is clear, and TM-1 is used also by many decent wheel builders, non all the mechanics uses the DT Swiss or the Sapim/Pillar tensiometer.

>> btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb32h4PK_aU&t=206s


A 'decent' wheelbuilder who thinks the tm-1 is good enough isn't worth spendings your money with.. if your that cheap the. There is no way in hell you'd bother with a calibration jiG which means it's worthless.. secondly the readings they give are affected ( a lot ) by the way you release the tool onto the spoke which compounds the inaccuracies. It's a perfectly good for hobby building but for professional builders its an unprofessional tool..!



Ok, you right.
Btw, with TM-1 i don't pretend to build wheels but to be able to check relative tension in order to have a reference, mainly with a pair of wheels or at most two.
Another thing is to have a "wheel construction's workshop".

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

gvnfnc77 wrote:
sugarkane wrote:
gvnfnc77 wrote:
mattr wrote:I'd say it's probably time to get them off to a decent wheel builder for a look over.....


Thanks but out off topic (a little bit), thread is clear, and TM-1 is used also by many decent wheel builders, non all the mechanics uses the DT Swiss or the Sapim/Pillar tensiometer.

>> btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb32h4PK_aU&t=206s


A 'decent' wheelbuilder who thinks the tm-1 is good enough isn't worth spendings your money with.. if your that cheap the. There is no way in hell you'd bother with a calibration jiG which means it's worthless.. secondly the readings they give are affected ( a lot ) by the way you release the tool onto the spoke which compounds the inaccuracies. It's a perfectly good for hobby building but for professional builders its an unprofessional tool..!



Ok, you right.
Btw, with TM-1 i don't pretend to build wheels but to be able to check relative tension in order to have a reference, mainly with a pair of wheels or at most two.
Another thing is to have a "wheel construction's workshop".


It's great for that, hence why a lot of shops use them. They can be of help in checking the consistency of a a wheelset but it would be madness to drop over 3k for a set of Wheels built with one! If you own and use one make sure you oil the pivot point with some light chain oil.. they get overlooked but it will improve the consistency of its readings if it's not neglected
Last edited by sugarkane on Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ergott
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by ergott

sugarkane wrote:secondly the readings they give are affected ( a lot ) by the way you release the tool onto the spoke which compounds the inaccuracies.


Forgot to mention, I had him use the Park tool and check readings with a spoke in the jig because of this. If I took the readings it would have been less helpful. I find the TM-1 repeatable if you use it exactly the same way consistently and keep it well maintained like you said.

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F45
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by F45

The TM 1 is fine. I can repeat the TM1 to within .2 on the slider, which according to the chart for a Sapim 1.8mm is plus or minus 3 kgf at around 130 kgf.

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ergott
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by ergott

F45 wrote:The TM 1 is fine. I can repeat the TM1 to within .2 on the slider, which according to the chart for a Sapim 1.8mm is plus or minus 3 kgf at around 130 kgf.


You're missing the point. The chart is the flaw. Compared to actual readings on a hanging scale (accurate to less than 0.5kg), it can be way off. It was already mentioned that the results are repeatable, but what good is that if the resulting output is inaccurate?

The main difference between something like the Park and the Wheel Fanatyk or FSA is the amount of side load applied to the spoke. The Park puts too much side load on the spoke (spring is too strong) to give an accurate plot of tension.

by Weenie


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F45
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by F45

Well yes, I chose to respond to the repeatbility comments because that is the only important metric.

Now I am interested in how it was determined that the Park puts too much tension when measuring, and what too much tension is.

My experiments have found that the TM1 is accurate to 100kgf across a range of diameters. Above that, it shows a value higher than actual.

Since I'm going to calibrate my tension meter regardless of what model I buy (I have a rig similar to yours), I reasoned that all I really need is repeatability. I have constructed my own "chart" for 100-130kgf for the spoke I'm building with.

I'm curious what I'm missing by not paying for a fancier gauge.

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