Alu Clinchers with Ceramic/dark Brake Tracks

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robertbb
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

SwissStop BXP > Koolstop Salmon

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mpulsiv
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

robertbb wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 am
SwissStop BXP > Koolstop Salmon
SwissStop BXP performs better in wet and/or dry then Kool-Stop salmon? Is the rubber just as soft?
On a relevant note, I think many riders swear by disc because they upgrade directly from the terrible Dura Ace/Ultegra pad. Overly stiff, made for longevity with major sacrifice in performance.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

by Weenie


robertbb
Posts: 1303
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:35 am
robertbb wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 am
SwissStop BXP > Koolstop Salmon
SwissStop BXP performs better in wet and/or dry then Kool-Stop salmon? Is the rubber just as soft?
On a relevant note, I think many riders swear by disc because they upgrade directly from the terrible Dura Ace/Ultegra pad. Overly stiff, made for longevity with major sacrifice in performance.
I believe it does yes... not because it’s softer to the touch but just to do with the formulation.
And I totally agree that poor stock pads (and calipers!) taint peoples views on how good rim brakes can be as compared to disc.
I think it’s bmp00f that’s said $60 campy potenza calipers outperform dura ace calipers and I totally agree.
The right rim brake setup is simply superb. I had a mate ride my bike with that setup, he’s been ridimg 20 years, and he couldn’t believe how good it was.

Lugan
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:02 pm

by Lugan

I live in th Seattle area and ride all winter in rain (base training). I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels. The coating and machining are very durable despite the gritty conditions I ride in. The braking in all conditions is far more immediate, powerful, and consistent than any 'normal' silver alloy rim.

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mpulsiv
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

robertbb wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:11 am
mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:35 am
robertbb wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 am
SwissStop BXP > Koolstop Salmon
SwissStop BXP performs better in wet and/or dry then Kool-Stop salmon? Is the rubber just as soft?
On a relevant note, I think many riders swear by disc because they upgrade directly from the terrible Dura Ace/Ultegra pad. Overly stiff, made for longevity with major sacrifice in performance.
I believe it does yes... not because it’s softer to the touch but just to do with the formulation.
And I totally agree that poor stock pads (and calipers!) taint peoples views on how good rim brakes can be as compared to disc.
I think it’s bmp00f that’s said $60 campy potenza calipers outperform dura ace calipers and I totally agree.
The right rim brake setup is simply superb. I had a mate ride my bike with that setup, he’s been ridimg 20 years, and he couldn’t believe how good it was.
Potenza calipers are phenomenal. The arms are stiffer than Super Record.
In contrast, Dura Ace caliper is more aggressive and sensitive with light touch. They exhibit raw power but after initial bite, they lose it. Potenza caliper is more predictable due to linear power and modulation.

I don't know about 12 speed Campagnolo brakes, but in 11 speed incarnatition, Potenza was the only caliper that was compatible with Shimano brake pads. Nice to be able to use widely available Shimano compatible brake pads.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

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mpulsiv
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

Lugan wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:13 pm
I live in th Seattle area and ride all winter in rain (base training). I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels. The coating and machining are very durable despite the gritty conditions I ride in. The braking in all conditions is far more immediate, powerful, and consistent than any 'normal' silver alloy rim.
PEO brake track require manufacturer pads. What pads are you using with Ardennes Black?
When you say that your setup is more powerful, did you compare to standard setup that general population runs (e.g. silver brake track with terrible OEM Shimano pads)?

Interesting read about PEO coating https://blog.keronite.com/what-is-plasm ... on-article
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

robertbb
Posts: 1303
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:19 pm
robertbb wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:11 am
mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:35 am
robertbb wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 am
SwissStop BXP > Koolstop Salmon
SwissStop BXP performs better in wet and/or dry then Kool-Stop salmon? Is the rubber just as soft?
On a relevant note, I think many riders swear by disc because they upgrade directly from the terrible Dura Ace/Ultegra pad. Overly stiff, made for longevity with major sacrifice in performance.
I believe it does yes... not because it’s softer to the touch but just to do with the formulation.
And I totally agree that poor stock pads (and calipers!) taint peoples views on how good rim brakes can be as compared to disc.
I think it’s bmp00f that’s said $60 campy potenza calipers outperform dura ace calipers and I totally agree.
The right rim brake setup is simply superb. I had a mate ride my bike with that setup, he’s been ridimg 20 years, and he couldn’t believe how good it was.
Potenza calipers are phenomenal. The arms are stiffer than Super Record.
In contrast, Dura Ace caliper is more aggressive and sensitive with light touch. They exhibit raw power but after initial bite, they lose it. Potenza caliper is more predictable due to linear power and modulation.

I don't know about 12 speed Campagnolo brakes, but in 11 speed incarnatition, Potenza was the only caliper that was compatible with Shimano brake pads. Nice to be able to use widely available Shimano compatible brake pads.
You, sir, you get it! :thumbup:
I've been harping on about this for some time. The Potenza skeleton brakes are better than the Chorus/Record/Super Record.
- The arms are stiffer (they are actually visibly thicker)
- The cable ferrule actually screws into the brake arm (unlike C/R/SR where it just sits loosely) which makes a far stiffer system.

Campy actually did a limited run of these brakes that simply reads "Campagnolo" rather than "Campagnolo Potenza" - for those that don't like mixing marques. I run these with my Chorus setups.

Lugan
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:02 pm

by Lugan

mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:29 pm
Lugan wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:13 pm
I live in th Seattle area and ride all winter in rain (base training). I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels. The coating and machining are very durable despite the gritty conditions I ride in. The braking in all conditions is far more immediate, powerful, and consistent than any 'normal' silver alloy rim.
PEO brake track require manufacturer pads. What pads are you using with Ardennes Black?
When you say that your setup is more powerful, did you compare to standard setup that general population runs (e.g. silver brake track with terrible OEM Shimano pads)?
I use Swisstop BXP (the dark blue color) though Hed recommends standard pads like stock Dura Ace. The BXPs are holding up surprisingly well considering the amount of friction the rims generate.

My comparisons over 20+ years of winter training are many: Boyd Altamont with ceramic coating (braking was excellent until the coating wore off after about 2,000 km), numerous high-end machined aluminum braking surfaces with high end pads from Swisstop or Dura Ace (most recent were Pacenti SL23, which were very good), and a long time ago I used Mavic Open Pro Ceramic which were also excellent until the coating wore off (ancient history). The Heds are, so far, the best of the bunch and the only thing keeping me from switching to a disc brake-equipped bike for winter riding. Again, the two main differentiators I get from the Hed Black braking surfaces are nearly immediate brake pad bite (there is no sensation of delayed bite while the pads squeegee water off the rims) and imprssively consistent amount of braking bite no matter the conditions.

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mpulsiv
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

Lugan wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:13 pm
mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:29 pm
Lugan wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:13 pm
I live in th Seattle area and ride all winter in rain (base training). I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels. The coating and machining are very durable despite the gritty conditions I ride in. The braking in all conditions is far more immediate, powerful, and consistent than any 'normal' silver alloy rim.
PEO brake track require manufacturer pads. What pads are you using with Ardennes Black?
When you say that your setup is more powerful, did you compare to standard setup that general population runs (e.g. silver brake track with terrible OEM Shimano pads)?
I use Swisstop BXP (the dark blue color) though Hed recommends standard pads like stock Dura Ace. The BXPs are holding up surprisingly well considering the amount of friction the rims generate.

My comparisons over 20+ years of winter training are many: Boyd Altamont with ceramic coating (braking was excellent until the coating wore off after about 2,000 km), numerous high-end machined aluminum braking surfaces with high end pads from Swisstop or Dura Ace (most recent were Pacenti SL23, which were very good), and a long time ago I used Mavic Open Pro Ceramic which were also excellent until the coating wore off (ancient history). The Heds are, so far, the best of the bunch and the only thing keeping me from switching to a disc brake-equipped bike for winter riding. Again, the two main differentiators I get from the Hed Black braking surfaces are nearly immediate brake pad bite (there is no sensation of delayed bite while the pads squeegee water off the rims) and imprssively consistent amount of braking bite no matter the conditions.
I understand that PEO (e.g. ceramic coating) brake tracks perform quite well, but the question is what do riders compare this to?
Of course it's going to perform vastly better than silver brake track with overly stiff Dura Ace/Ultegra pad. Like I said, Shimano pads are terrible in dry and wet.
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

Lugan
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:02 pm

by Lugan

mpulsiv wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:26 pm
Lugan wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:13 pm
mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:29 pm
Lugan wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:13 pm
I live in th Seattle area and ride all winter in rain (base training). I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels. The coating and machining are very durable despite the gritty conditions I ride in. The braking in all conditions is far more immediate, powerful, and consistent than any 'normal' silver alloy rim.
PEO brake track require manufacturer pads. What pads are you using with Ardennes Black?
When you say that your setup is more powerful, did you compare to standard setup that general population runs (e.g. silver brake track with terrible OEM Shimano pads)?
I use Swisstop BXP (the dark blue color) though Hed recommends standard pads like stock Dura Ace. The BXPs are holding up surprisingly well considering the amount of friction the rims generate.

My comparisons over 20+ years of winter training are many: Boyd Altamont with ceramic coating (braking was excellent until the coating wore off after about 2,000 km), numerous high-end machined aluminum braking surfaces with high end pads from Swisstop or Dura Ace (most recent were Pacenti SL23, which were very good), and a long time ago I used Mavic Open Pro Ceramic which were also excellent until the coating wore off (ancient history). The Heds are, so far, the best of the bunch and the only thing keeping me from switching to a disc brake-equipped bike for winter riding. Again, the two main differentiators I get from the Hed Black braking surfaces are nearly immediate brake pad bite (there is no sensation of delayed bite while the pads squeegee water off the rims) and imprssively consistent amount of braking bite no matter the conditions.
I understand that PEO (e.g. ceramic coating) brake tracks perform quite well, but the question is what do riders compare this to?
Of course it's going to perform vastly better than silver brake track with overly stiff Dura Ace/Ultegra pad. Like I said, Shimano pads are terrible in dry and wet.
I just gave you a list of what I compare the Hed Black to. Are you asking me again, or are you asking others? I could talk about carbon brake surfaces, but that's like beating a horse skeleton.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

For me it has been

DT oxic with BXP
Mavic exalith with Mavic pads
Alloy with soft pads
Alloy with RC55 pads

The Oxic/BXP combo is by far the best in terms of power, modulation, durability and cleanliness when things get wet (no grey slime on everything)

Exalith stops wonderfully but is loud and fragile when wet conditions catch you out.

Alloy with BXP/Kool Stop is great in the dry but messy in the wet

RC55 pads make a great case for disc.

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mpulsiv
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 pm

by mpulsiv

The glory of cleaning pads and poking metal shards out.

Image
Racing is a three-dimensional high-speed chess game, involving hundreds of pieces on the board.

:arrow: CBA = Chronic Bike Addiction
:arrow: OCD = Obsessive Cycling Disorder

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silvalis
Posts: 757
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:02 am
Location: Aus

by silvalis

mpulsiv wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:35 am
robertbb wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 am
SwissStop BXP > Koolstop Salmon
SwissStop BXP performs better in wet and/or dry then Kool-Stop salmon? Is the rubber just as soft?
On a relevant note, I think many riders swear by disc because they upgrade directly from the terrible Dura Ace/Ultegra pad. Overly stiff, made for longevity with major sacrifice in performance.
I've been using both for a few years and reckon Koolstop salmons work slightly better in the rain (SR11 dp skellies), but wear faster than BXPs. I have a sneaking suspicion that koolstops are harsher on rims than BXPs but don't have any real data.
Chasse patate

robertbb
Posts: 1303
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

^^ Agree with the above, which is why as a whole I reckon the BXP's are better. I also think they modulate better in the dry.

The Koolstops (black, salmon or combo) have an advantage with rims that have thin brake tracks (e.g. Easton R90's, HED belgiums)

flying
Posts: 2094
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

I agree with the praise for Potenza Brakes.
Best brakes I have ever owned period

On a side note about dark rims....
I saw recently Campagnolo has Black Zonda wheels for disc ...Unless it has been around awhile & I just never noticed as I dont run disc :wink:

https://www.probikekit.com/brands/campa ... tent:Zonda
11349822-1184559194846266.jpg

by Weenie


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