Making the transition to tubulars

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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nickf
Posts: 725
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm

by nickf

robertbb wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 pm
nickf wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:14 pm
robertbb wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:59 am
Squashednuts wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:53 am

I used tape & it’s been reliable so far
Here’s a how to & why YouTube link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV1X4fWsCfk
What kind of riding - any fast descents?
Also, which tape? Looking for reviews on the effetto mariposa stuff...
I have been using effetto mariposa for quite awhile now. Mounted around 10-12 tires with it. I ride only tubs and never had issues with the tire bond. Makes changing the tire clean and quick. Can swap a tire in 15min and ride the next morning. Only have a wipe the rim with alcohol to remove any dirt before mounting. I'll never go back to glue.
I really appreciate this. Do you do any technical/fast descending with them?
Not often but have been down descents at a ride in North Georgia called 6gap. Fast twisty decents, by my standards anyways. Most of my riding is here in Florida, just flat and fast. Honestly removing the tire is just as difficult as a glued tub, maybe even harder. I give more thought to my skewers being tightened properly then I do my tubs attached with effetto mariposa.

by Weenie


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Calnago
Posts: 7957
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Hey @Nickf. How does the tape you use clean up when you need to remove and mount a new tire? Easy to remove, or lots of work getting the old stuff off? Also, I was thinking after my last post about giving it a try, as an experiment, but then thought the most critcal area you want the bond to be solid is at the very edges... when gluing I take the glue right up and onto the edge of the top ridges of the rim, so that if you to take a pencil for example and lay it across the rim edges, it would stick. I would think that tapes, coming in various widths, may or may not extend all the way up to that edge like I just describe, and I certainly wouldn’t want any excess there either. Plus with all the different rim sizes these days, isn’t it kind of hard to find a tape that fits exactly, whereas gluing will always ensure proper and complete coverage. Don’t know, but I am curious... not so much for me but for a couple people I know who switched to tubulars and love them so far but have not mounted or removed or cleaned a single tubular rim by themselves in their entire life. And I don’t want to do it. It’s funny, because I actually enjoy taking the time to do a perfect job on my own wheels, but doing it for someone else (even if being well paid to do it) is like having all your friends bringing their cars over for me to wash, just because I do such a good job, “and he enjoys it”. Well, newsflash... I enjoy knowing that my own wheels are glued properly, and the only way I can ensure that is to do it myself. But I don’t want to “wash other people’s cars” if that makes sense. So I’m thinking for those types, tape may very well be a perfectly fine solution.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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nickf
Posts: 725
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm

by nickf

The tape pulls up really clean. Might have to rub off a couple patches but nothing that takes more than a few minutes. I then hit the rim with acetone or alcohol to clean the surface. Apply tape to rim, then mount tire.

When I was gluing the Bontrager wheels they have a rounded edge, so it was hard to tell where to stop exactly and would end up with extra glue. I use the medium width tape on my Aeolus 3s and 5s. The tape is in 100% contact with the base tape that is in contact with the rims well. There is a thin line of base tape on either side of the tire that just doesn't contact the rim due to the rims well depth. Hope that makes sense. On the rear wheel, I do get some boogers on the side of the tire, from the soft side of the tape squeezing out. With gum wall tires it's a little more noticeable. But when I pull the tire the tape is adhered completely to the tire, cannot separate the two. The bond to the rim is just as good as glue if not better.

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Thanks @nickf, perhaps I'll give it a shot then. Have you tried any of that 3M tape the guy in that video was using? Or just the Effetto Mariposa stuff?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

robertbb
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

We interrupt this broadcast for an off topic question: @Calnago, what would you recommend for cleaning 2017 Bora rims? I got some streaks of Effetto Mariposa Carogna remover on some of the decals and I want to get them off with solvent without ruining the decals.

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Hmmm, I don’t know... a lot of water and elbow grease first. Some Dawn dishwash liquid next. Then Simple Green perhaps. I just don’t know how impervious the water transfer decals are to cleaners of different sorts. I do like Goof-Off for wiping off a bit of glue that might find its way on a brake track or something. I’ve got three tubes of that Effetto Glue Remover but haven’t had occasion to try it out yet. With any of that stuff I always try to be careful not to get it on the decals. Those are the water transfer decals, right. Sorry, can’t help you in on that one but how do you find the going with the glue remover?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

robertbb
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

Carogna is good stuff. Comes out of the tube much like toothpaste (and smelling like raspberries). I painted it on with a brush and left it sit overnight. Next morning it had turned into a thick and sticky goop which I've been scraping off with a wooden popsickle stick (bought a bag of 100... you need to rotate as they get blunted on the harder carbon). Some parts of the rim were easier to scrape than others. The amount of time you leave it isn't an exact science - it depends on the type, thickness and age of the glue you're removing - which explains the degree of difficulty in various parts of the rim. The parts I've finished I've then gone over with acetone and it's basically returned the rim to brand new which is awesome. Will take a lot of hours of work, but hey this is a labour of love. Hoping the use of tape in future will lead to a cleaner process and easier swapping of tyres.

If you leave the gel on for a day or more it will turn to chalk and stay on the rim (but will soften up again if you go over it again with more remover)

RE: the decals, I was wearing nitrile gloves while scraping and needed to hold the rim in place with one hand while scraping with the other (wheel mounted in my feedback sports truing stand). Got a bit of the goop on my gloves which found its way onto the decal. Not for too long, and these decals are under clearcoat so I think the streaks are sitting on top. Tried acetone but no dice. Really I want to know how strong that clear is and what solvent I can safely use on it... paging @graeme_f_k... any advice?

octav
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:40 pm
Location: Bucharest

by octav

I wanted to switch again for tubulars as my mountains wheelset so I got some nive Black Bora 35 Ultra tubular.
What tires would you recommend to me? I live in Romania so mountains roads are not the best with potholes and debris on the sides of the road with small stones, glass etc.
I am thinking of getting 25mm front and maybe even 28mm back for added confort as I have a disc hernia.
All opinions are welcome, need to put the wheel on the bike until april :D

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Calnago
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

robertbb wrote: RE: the decals, I was wearing nitrile gloves while scraping and needed to hold the rim in place with one hand while scraping with the other (wheel mounted in my feedback sports truing stand). Got a bit of the goop on my gloves which found its way onto the decal. Not for too long, and these decals are under clearcoat so I think the streaks are sitting on top. Tried acetone but no dice. Really I want to know how strong that clear is and what solvent I can safely use on it... paging @graeme_f_k... any advice?
There is no clear coat on the rims and the decals are a thin water transfer decal. Can’t really help with knowing for sure what will or will not be ok for removing the dried glue remover without harming the decal. I suppose if they were mine I’d try Goof-Off next, but try testing first, maybe on the tiny trademark “R” at the end of one of the decals.

Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Geoff
Posts: 5255
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

@biwa, I get that the process of gluing is steeped in mystery and people are concerned about the consequences of 'getting it wrong'. Obviously, marketing guys have cottoned-on to this, hence the appearance of all of these products designed to make the process less 'scary'. Really, though, there is no need for any concern.

When I began racing, there was no alternative to tubulars - literally. As a result, I started gluing tubulars and repairing tubulars when I was a Cadet. If I can do that at 13ish, so can you. All it takes is some patience and rigour.

At the risk of repeating myself with a brief summary, I will say:

1. Pre-strech your tires. This is especially important with true, handmade tires like Dugast or FMB. Just put them on old rims and inflate them for a few weeks. I just store my tubulars on old Fiamme Red Lables, etc.

2. Use good glue. I recommend Vittoria Mastic 1, which, over the past 40 years of gluing tires, has proved to be dead reliable. It has simply proven itself to be the best (and for any rim surface, alloy, durex, carbon or kevlar). Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

3. Clean your rims. I used to score mine with steel wool, farrier's rasps, emery cloth, etc., etc., but I have not done that in years. The only actual scientific study of rim glue that I am aware of (Jones & Howatt, 1995) found it to make no difference, which is borne-out by my experience. I just wipe them really well with a clean terry rag and Goof-Off (use nitrile gloves in a well-ventilated area), changing frequently, followed by alcohol and a final water rinse.

4. Use several, thin, even layers. Starting with the rim, lay-down thin, even layers all the way across the rim bed. The layers should be as thin as you can get them. Do both rims with a layer, then both basetapes. Let them dry (overnight is really safe). I like lots of those thin layers on the rim and at least a couple on the basetape. I like one, fresh layer on the basetape just before I mount it.

5. Stretch the tire over the rim. Starting at the valve stem, use your weight to stretch the tire down the rim, If you do this, ANY properly pre-streched tire will flip right on, including a Dugast Paris-Roubaix seta 27. Once you get this right, you will not have any glue mess on you or your stuff, other than the odd bit on the brake track, easily cleaned.

6. Clean-up. A clean terry rag with common household paint thinner works well and does not harm your carbon or clear coat. Make sure you clean your brake tracks well with alcohol and then rinse with water.

It is dead-simple. It is very reliable and safe. I have never rolled a tire that I have glued myself. No-one for whom I have glued a tire has ever rolled one. That goes for road, crits, track, 'cross or MTB. That is a lot of tires over the years. I am teaching my 11-year-old to glue his own tires. Once you have done it, you'll wonder what the fuss was about.

alcatraz
Posts: 1909
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Geoff wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:22 pm
Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sorry to disturb you but I was hoping to ask you some questions.

Have you ever had to replace a flat tire on a ride?

Do you find your instructions compatible with flat repair by streetside tire swap?

If you have the same tire on for 2 seasons, and you still have some tread left, do you reglue it to keep the glue kind of fresh and somewhat flexible?

Do you still patch tubes or have you started throwing tires out prematurely? :) I'm wondering if one is only ambitious 1-2 seasons and then just gets a bit "lazy" and just swap tires after each flat.

I like low rolling resistance and light tires so I'm going to experience my share of flats if I try tubulars. I'm trying to imagine my tubular experience. I would have a hard time to throw a tire out until it's in really bad shape. I have a feeling that for someone like me, it will get painful. :lol:

Geoff
Posts: 5255
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

Well, tubulars are funny old things. Depending on your riding conditions (road conditions and personal habits, both), you may have different results.

Where I am, we do not have a lot of thorny plants. We also have a long-standing, Crown-funded glass recycling programme. Accordingly, there is not a lot of road debris lying-around on the ground. Having grown-up from my very first riding days on tubulars (racing and training), I routinely sweep my tires with my hands whilst riding. I do this without even thinking about it. In all the thousands of kilometres I hve ridden on tubulars, I have very rarely had flats. I have never flatted in a race (including 'cross). I did have a double-flat in training where I changed a tubular on the road, then flatted the new one within a few hundred metres. That was just bad luck due to some tiny metal shavings that had fallen off a truck. So, yes, I have had flats on the road where i have had to dismount a tire and reinstal a new one. It was no problem.

With respect to re-gluing, for road, I do not have a set 'schedule'. You need to be mindful of their condition each season. Just test them before you ride by pressing them hard with your fingers. You will be surprised how many years a good glue job will last. For 'cross, it really depends on conditions. In some heavy, alkaline soil, the basetape will 'wick' salts into the basetape and the glue job will be done in a single day. When I replace road tubulars, though, it is usually because they are worn-down to the cords and the tread is completely gone or the latex tube is just gone. Fully deflated, you will find that a tubular can be removed quote easily, considering how hard it is to even move an inflated tire. Like everything in life, though, there is a technique.

Starting from the side farthest the valve, press up and away with your two thumbs. Do not just try to 'flip' the tire off the rimbed. That does not work. I find that if my thumbs are really close together, that works the best. It is all about using the leverage of your long arms and your hands hooked around the rim and tire with your two, locked-off thumbs like tire levers. Don't try tou just push with your thumbs. Once you have a little separation between the basetape and the rimbed, you are in business. On the road, keep pressing up and off until you have a small gap that you can hook your finger under. Again, pulling up, get two fingers, then your hand under there. Now you will be able to get some real leverage with one hand around the tire and one hand around the rim and the whole tire will just zip right off. On the bench, I have an old, large screwdriver that I slide-under the basetape. That will just zip the tire off more easily.

If you did a good job initially, you will have a nice, relatively even layer of glue down on the rimbed. The spare, with 'fresh' glue on the basetape, will stick down to that well. On the bench, one more thin layer of fresh glue should do the trick.

For repairs, when I was a kid, I had to repair tires because I couldn't afford tomdo otherwise. Today, I don't have the time, but I am still way too cheap to just toss hand-made tubulars, so I just store them up and send them off to be repaired. For $38, that is just a cost of tubulars. Given how long they last, though, it does take awhile to get a stock to repair...

I a not a big guy (5'10", 136 - I know, big fatty right now) and I have no problems getting tubulars on and off. It is all down to technique. Don't be worried about messing this up. It is no big deal at all. When I was a kid, that was all there was and I would not even give it a second thought. You won't, either.

User avatar
dj97223
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:27 pm

by dj97223

Geoff wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:22 pm
@biwa, I get that the process of gluing is steeped in mystery and people are concerned about the consequences of 'getting it wrong'. Obviously, marketing guys have cottoned-on to this, hence the appearance of all of these products designed to make the process less 'scary'. Really, though, there is no need for any concern.

When I began racing, there was no alternative to tubulars - literally. As a result, I started gluing tubulars and repairing tubulars when I was a Cadet. If I can do that at 13ish, so can you. All it takes is some patience and rigour.

At the risk of repeating myself with a brief summary, I will say:

1. Pre-strech your tires. This is especially important with true, handmade tires like Dugast or FMB. Just put them on old rims and inflate them for a few weeks. I just store my tubulars on old Fiamme Red Lables, etc.

2. Use good glue. I recommend Vittoria Mastic 1, which, over the past 40 years of gluing tires, has proved to be dead reliable. It has simply proven itself to be the best (and for any rim surface, alloy, durex, carbon or kevlar). Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

3. Clean your rims. I used to score mine with steel wool, farrier's rasps, emery cloth, etc., etc., but I have not done that in years. The only actual scientific study of rim glue that I am aware of (Jones & Howatt, 1995) found it to make no difference, which is borne-out by my experience. I just wipe them really well with a clean terry rag and Goof-Off (use nitrile gloves in a well-ventilated area), changing frequently, followed by alcohol and a final water rinse.

4. Use several, thin, even layers. Starting with the rim, lay-down thin, even layers all the way across the rim bed. The layers should be as thin as you can get them. Do both rims with a layer, then both basetapes. Let them dry (overnight is really safe). I like lots of those thin layers on the rim and at least a couple on the basetape. I like one, fresh layer on the basetape just before I mount it.

5. Stretch the tire over the rim. Starting at the valve stem, use your weight to stretch the tire down the rim, If you do this, ANY properly pre-streched tire will flip right on, including a Dugast Paris-Roubaix seta 27. Once you get this right, you will not have any glue mess on you or your stuff, other than the odd bit on the brake track, easily cleaned.

6. Clean-up. A clean terry rag with common household paint thinner works well and does not harm your carbon or clear coat. Make sure you clean your brake tracks well with alcohol and then rinse with water.

It is dead-simple. It is very reliable and safe. I have never rolled a tire that I have glued myself. No-one for whom I have glued a tire has ever rolled one. That goes for road, crits, track, 'cross or MTB. That is a lot of tires over the years. I am teaching my 11-year-old to glue his own tires. Once you have done it, you'll wonder what the fuss was about.
Geoff, you left out the part about wearing a cashmere sweater. :lol:
“If you save your breath I feel a man like you can manage it. And if you don't manage it, you'll die. Only slowly, very slowly, old friend.”

Geoff
Posts: 5255
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Location: Canada

by Geoff

That is actually a true story, I'm sorry to say...

by Weenie


bikeboy1tr
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

Just wanted to add to Geoff's story on a point of flat tire changing out on the road (dont think I read this in the explanation), once you have changed flats out on the road you want to be careful on how hard you corner with that fresh tire as the glue hasnt had a chance to set up yet. I always blow my tire up to a pretty good pressure after changing it out on the road. I have never had any issue with freshly changed tires on the road as I corner as gently as I can. Mind you I also dont use any tape at all so if you do use tape this likely wont be an issue. This past year I have had no tubular flats but I did have a front clincher go flat which is unusual but it happens.
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"-Albert Einstein
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
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