Making the transition to tubulars

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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montee
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:56 am

by montee

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by Weenie


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montee
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:56 am

by montee

fdegrove wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:44 pm
Hi,
montee wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:53 pm
Perhaps a stupid question: why aren't "tubeless tubulars" really a thing? Especially with rim brakes, light weight + rims that don't melt + low rolling resistance + puncture resistance (sealant & many punctures fixable on the road with a worm/plug) would be a great combination. Any reason it's not been done, is there an engineering limitation?
Tubeless tubulars as in tubulars without an inner tube ?
Well, so far we haven't seen any that actually do exhibit lower rolling resistance. Lower weight, possibly.

Cheers, ;)
I was thinking more for puncture benefits than RR - I guess it's a tiny market for a tub without inner, designed to use with sealant & fixable with a worm/plug?

fdegrove
Tubbie Guru
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Location: Belgium

by fdegrove

Hi,

You can inject liquid latex into a regular tubular if you want or use tubeless which does have some advantages such as lower weight and lower rolling resistance.
The disadvantages are much the same as with clinchers though.

Cheers, ;)
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

bilwit
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Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

montee wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:54 pm
I was thinking more for puncture benefits than RR - I guess it's a tiny market for a tub without inner, designed to use with sealant & fixable with a worm/plug?
it's been tried before but it never took off, Challenge actually has some available that's more gravel/CX oriented

https://www.challengetires.com/news/han ... less-ready

you can of course put sealant in the tube as-is with normal tubulars but this is more of a reactive quick-fix rather than a preventative measure (otherwise you risk the latex sticking together or the sealant drying up which is basically the end of the line for the tub unless you're comfortable changing the tube and stitching it back up)

montee
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:56 am

by montee

fdegrove wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 11:21 pm
Hi,

You can inject liquid latex into a regular tubular if you want or use tubeless which does have some advantages such as lower weight and lower rolling resistance.
The disadvantages are much the same as with clinchers though.

Cheers, ;)
Indeed. I run tubeless on some clincher wheels. I have some tubs that always leave me nervous about punctures. Hence my question: is there a particular reason the tubeless tubular approach (which I was aware Challenge tried for CX) was never really done for road tyres & never took off? Or just market forces that there isn't much demand since pros have no need for it? Thanks!

DHG01
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Location: Madrid

by DHG01

montee wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:44 am
fdegrove wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 11:21 pm
Hi,

You can inject liquid latex into a regular tubular if you want or use tubeless which does have some advantages such as lower weight and lower rolling resistance.
The disadvantages are much the same as with clinchers though.

Cheers, ;)
Indeed. I run tubeless on some clincher wheels. I have some tubs that always leave me nervous about punctures. Hence my question: is there a particular reason the tubeless tubular approach (which I was aware Challenge tried for CX) was never really done for road tyres & never took off? Or just market forces that there isn't much demand since pros have no need for it? Thanks!

Not sure I understand question - Tufos are tubeless tubulars, aren't they?

I have had a few Challenge CX tubulars; most notably Almanzo. I am pretty sure they have a latex inner tube.

I also use the 36 mm Strada Bianca. This one is special. It has a latex inner tube that is "glued" to the carcass. So flats can be repaired with plug kits, as with tubeless.

montee
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:56 am

by montee

Thanks. Challenge say:
"Also launching at Eurobike are the first Gravel Handmade Tubeless Tubulars (HTLTU). All Challenge Gravel treads now offer this unique HTLTU system that maintains all the performance benefits of the best handmade tubulars. A latex liner is fused to the casing, replacing the traditional inner tube, allowing for the use of a plug to finish a ride or race in case of a puncture too large for the sealant to fix."

Are there any road-focused tubs (preferably 25mm) that are designed to use with sealant (without risk of sticking inner tube to itself) and plug/worm if puncture too large for the sealant to fix? Wouldnt this be a great option for a really light set of wheels with less fear of delaminating rims or being stranded by a puncture?

DHG01
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Location: Madrid

by DHG01

montee wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 10:43 am
A latex liner is fused to the casing, replacing the traditional inner tube, allowing for the use of a plug
Aha! That is what I meant by "glued inner tube". I did not know that it was extended to all CX; I thought it was only some.
montee wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 10:43 am

Are there any road-focused tubs (preferably 25mm) that are designed to use with sealant (without risk of sticking inner tube to itself) and plug/worm if puncture too large for the sealant to fix? Wouldnt this be a great option for a really light set of wheels with less fear of delaminating rims or being stranded by a puncture?
Some people use sealant in a preventive manner on tubulars. Nothing stops you from doing so. With latex inner tubes it will dry up sooner. I have been running with sealant in a 33 mm latex inner tube for the last 2 months. I put it to seal a puncture, but it is now preventive (sealing potential new punctures).

If the tubular has butyl inner tube a sealant will take quite long to dry - I think sealant is actually less exposed within a butyl inner tube than within a tubeless tyre.

Tufos do not have inner tube. It will hold preventive sealant very well (I ve done it). In theory, you could use a plug/worm with Tufos. The question/challenge is if plug/worm is designed to support the higher pressures of a road tyre.

The other question is why ride Tufos at all....

Having said all that, I am not really in favor of using preventive sealant in road; I don't even use it in gravel. You are getting a worse ride and, if it does dry, it unnecessarily ruins the tubular.

montee
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:56 am

by montee

Thanks, that's all interesting and helpful.

So (preventative) sealant can be used with some tubs, but it's an imperfect solution. And i've read that running latex tubes (or latex-inner'd tubs, presumably) with sealant can actually increase the chance of failure, as well as risk of sticking the tube to itself.

None of this answers why none of the tyre companies (Challenge's gravel HTLTU aside) have developed a tub specifically for use with sealant. Wouldnt that realise the benefits of tubs (lighter + less fragile rims, ride feel) AND tubeless (puncture resistance, ability to run lower pressures). Or is there a reason it's technically difficult?

DHG01
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Location: Madrid

by DHG01

Montee - I am not sure if I am understanding.

- Lattex inner tube tubulars: you can use sealant. I have never had an issue. In general, with latex tubulars, if they have been deflated for a long period of time, you need to pump air carefully because inner walls can stick to each other.

- The rest of tubulars. i.e. tubulars with butyl inner tubes or tubulars without any inner tube (also known as vulcanized, Tufo type):
1. Can hold preventive sealant with no issues.
2. These tubulars hold sealant better than tubeless tyres; sealant will take longer to dry in these tubulars than in tubeless tyres.

Monstee - it is very common for some tubular users to use preventive sealant; but many others don't see a purpose or benefit to using preventive sealant.

DHG01
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Location: Madrid

by DHG01

montee wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:04 pm
AND tubeless (puncture resistance, ability to run lower pressures). Or is there a reason it's technically difficult?
BTW - running lower pressures is an advantage of tubeless over inner tube clincher, as pinch flats are avoided. But not an advantage over tubular.

Tubulars typically can run pressures lower that tubeless; probably the main reason why tubular still predominates within cyclocross. Cyclocross can use pressure as low as 1.5 kg on 33 mm wide tubulares. A tubeless tyre may not be able to hold that.

montee
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:56 am

by montee

Thanks, as probably shows I'm pretty novice with tubs. My worry whenever I ride them is either being stranded by a puncture, or having to carry a taped spare. How effedtive is it to run tubs with sealant in the tubes - is success rate for a 'self-healing' puncture likely to be similar as running tubeless?

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dj97223
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:27 pm

by dj97223

montee wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 3:29 pm
Thanks, as probably shows I'm pretty novice with tubs. My worry whenever I ride them is either being stranded by a puncture, or having to carry a taped spare. How effedtive is it to run tubs with sealant in the tubes - is success rate for a 'self-healing' puncture likely to be similar as running tubeless?
Another option is to simply carry a can of Pit Stop and/or a phone. That's what I do.
“If you save your breath I feel a man like you can manage it. And if you don't manage it, you'll die. Only slowly, very slowly, old friend.”

3Pio
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by 3Pio

montee wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 3:29 pm
Thanks, as probably shows I'm pretty novice with tubs. My worry whenever I ride them is either being stranded by a puncture, or having to carry a taped spare. How effedtive is it to run tubs with sealant in the tubes - is success rate for a 'self-healing' puncture likely to be similar as running tubeless?
This remind me on my start with tubulars and beeing worry that i'll have problems with punctures especially that often i ride alone and in the past even in distant countrys...

But.. :) After i actually switched to tubulars most of the time, i realized that those worries are not that real :) and there is definetely for me more positive than negative.. And far from beeing that complicated as i was imaging first...

Helpfull if u have two pairs of tubular wheelset (if u ride everyday), to be able to switch wheel/tire immediately while u glueing new tubular (or spare bike)

This is practice i do with my tubs:

1.I always bring following things: Tufo Extreme Sealant (works most of the time), Campagnolo Tyre Levers (best to remove Tubular tire if needed), Spare Tufo Elite Jet <135gm preglued tire (i have the same tire for few years, used few times allready and check glue on begining of season and i just correct few spots if i realized it's needed), and Mini Pump

2. In the case of puncture:

- If Air is leaking slowly i just continue the ride (last time i rode like 30 km back to home without problems), and then at home use the Sealant as first remedy

- If i realized that maybe i wont make it to come home i use Tufo Extreme Sealant on the road.. Most of the times it's works...

-If Tufo doesnt work :) i just use spare tyre (Really easy job and quck change of tire)...

-If i have tire where i put sealant like Tufo Extreme, im just carefull to dont let tire deflate completely (even i had few times situations that happened something like that, but tire still inflated without beeing torn and non usable anymore..) Of course in the begining i also had one tire (VIttoria Corsa G+), where deflated completely and had Tufo inside (i was on Holliday and forgot to hang the bike in meanwhile), so when i get back and treid to inflate.. Tire was ripped off... But that happened only once and easy avoidable if hang the bike instead just keep on wheels (if u dont ride it longer time)....


So just switch to tubs, u'll really like it.. Nothing complicated or beeing more risky regarding punctures and beeing left on the road with non rideable bike vs regular clinchers.. Even oposite.. If ur Clincher (or Tubeless) tire have big sidewall cut (or any big cut), which will destroy the tire, u are in trouble.. With Tubulars (Yes, i had that kind of situation), u have spare whole tire so u just replace it to ride home... :)


My last tire that im replacing this days have more than 6000 km (Front Corsa G+)..In this tire i experimented first with Continental Revo Sealant (and it doesnt worked). Than i also added Tufo Sealant.. It worked on one ride, but next ride pressure went to 4 bars and stayed like that without problems.. Beeing lazy :) i rode like this 104 km, next day another 64 km, but definetely im retiring this tire :) I just checked my stats, i realized i had also one Corsa G+ in the front which i replaced on about 7000km (preventive, since 7000 km is plenty ...)

Last rear Tire that i replaced (Vittoria Rubino Pro G+) 3800 km... (i had most mileage with Continental Sprinter on the rear.. More than 5000 km...)

Hope this helping u...

bilwit
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Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

montee wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 3:29 pm
Thanks, as probably shows I'm pretty novice with tubs. My worry whenever I ride them is either being stranded by a puncture, or having to carry a taped spare. How effedtive is it to run tubs with sealant in the tubes - is success rate for a 'self-healing' puncture likely to be similar as running tubeless?
I wouldn't pre-apply it like normal tubeless if it's a latex tube in there, even with latex-specific sealant. If you aren't running latex tubs, then IMO you might as well just use clinchers. You ride tubulars for the best supple and light ride, riding with butyl in there defeats the purpose.

What I do is carry around a 50ml Tufo Tire Sealant bottle with me. Tiny enough to fit in my pocket and gives me a reasonable chance at a quick-fix at the side of the road. For longer rides, I'll carry this AND a pre-glued, undersized tufo tub that packs small and is toe-strapped under my saddle. If worse comes to worse, I can't get the sealant to seal and I rip off the tub, put in the spare, and gingerly roll home.

That said, I switched to tubs a year and a half ago and haven't had a puncture this whole time. The only time I had to use sealant was to help some rando on the side of the road.

by Weenie


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