FarEast factories finally trying to replicate LW wheels?

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
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853guy
Posts: 109
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by 853guy

bura wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:56 pm
I am ok with that 853guy.
We all know that Chinese carbon wheels are available for a price around 800-900USD with 240DT Swiss hubs.
What we don't know are competitive price comparisons for full carbon wheels from China.
We also know that we have to pay "a lot more" when buying a full carbon wheels from LW,Corima,Reynolds.Or somehow Equinox,too.
I also know that Deng-Fu and Hong-Fu are both companies ,who stand behind their products. Know about one warranty case with Deng-Fu.
And these guys have their testing methods and can't be compared with a random no name Chinese manufacturer on Alibaba.
Bura,

For me, it’s real world data points accumulated over many years versus hearsay on a forum. Guys riding thousands and thousands of kilometres every year with dealer and manufacturer support and a robust warranty claim system is a tidal wave of real-world evidence against the drop in a bucket of guy X buying product Y online and writing about it on a forum. The latter just has very limited utility value to me.

I have nothing against the companies you mention - but I have very little “for” them either, except those individual data points.

bura wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:56 pm
We should think things over and ask ourselves as a consumer what or who is raising components costs all over the world?
I’ve asked that question a lot. And the answer is: We are.

We’re raising them. Because we demand more for less, quicker, and with greater choice. We expect to have higher and higher standards of living, while living off money we don’t have. We want to pay people less than their time is worth, while raping the Earth’s resources in a non-sustainable manner, and polluting it to record levels. We prefer to outsource our labour to countries whose human rights record is opaque to say the least, and ignore the fact that their working conditions will be sub par and their hours worked be excessive. We’ll then act smug, knowing we saved ourselves from getting ripped off, so we can consume more products by demanding everyone else pays a cost for our material gratification.

bura wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:56 pm
A 80 gram full carbon saddle costs around 40usd in China...still going strong after 5 years. Similar saddle from some European manufacturers with may be 5 or 10 gr less costs ten times more .
Again, individual data points have little utility value to me. I would never consider it my business to tell you who to buy from or why. But I would hope that regardless of whether a full carbon saddle is made in China, Europe or anywhere else, the people making it are paid a fair wage for their time, have working conditions that are humane, and the business practices of the company who hire them are ethical.

Be well, Bura.

853guy

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bura
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by bura

Thanks. Just to be clear ...seems that I have asked the "right" questions ,and have someone got it up to the point.
Sorry for getting off topic but the bicycle has become an object of fetishism like many things in our lives.
I would be over asked to specify what a fair wage for certain markets would be but can imagine that if someone who is living in the country with the by far most public depth figure on this planet, which indicates that this country is living a dream on cost of other nations ,everything else beside what happens out of that country becomes a minority concern and is just not an issue to discuss about.
I for myself have taken necessary steps and have sold my only bicycle I owned. See below. My kids have their own bicycles and are not much interested in riding them that often ,so I always have a ride.
Kuota Kom Evo
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111825&p=955235#p955235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SOLD

by Weenie


glepore
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Location: Pa USA

by glepore

853guy wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:54 pm
Just to be clear, the origin of the wheels is irrelevant to me. Their provenance - i.e. their quality relative to their origin - is.

For $1250, there are many, many carbon-rimmed wheelsets I'd be happy to ride. For $1250 (1), there are very, very few full carbon wheelsets I'd consider riding - especially when real-world data points are virtually non-existent - irrespective of which country they came from.

Best,

853guy

(1) For those that are interested, I'd be keen to know... Of the following, which do you think the manufacturers of a full carbon wheelset has compromised to reach a $1250 price point: robustness, ride quality, quality control, customer support or warranty?
You missed one-margin.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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853guy
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by 853guy

Hello bura,

Can bicycles be fetishised objects? Of course. As can individual components, their weight or their “value” (1).

And you’re right, once we begin to desire the thing-in-itself without consideration of why it exists (its purpose) and how it exists (the process by which it comes to be) - and especially, whether the “why” or “how” negatively impact the Other for my benefit - then we end up with the sort of void that cannot be filled by simply owning material possessions, but instead by desiring them.

It’s easy to point fingers at Them. Me? I implicate myself. I would love to live the sort of life in which no one else was harmed for my benefit. Yet I stand on the shoulders of untold sacrifices of others. Those who fought for equality, liberty, and literally, in combat - I type this from the comfort of my home without the burden of fighting those fights.

Nevertheless, as a dad to young children, there’s no doubt there are plenty of battles I (and my generation) must engage in I if want to leave my children a world in which they will be better off. One of those battles is to ensure the money I make I make as ethically as possible, and that I distribute that wealth in a way that supports those who are also attempting to balance commercial imperatives (the need to make money) with social concerns (the need to return value to the humans they are responsible for, and the Earth on which they live).

It’s not always easy, and it’s a learning curve with some pretty steep inclines. From my privileged vantage point, it seems that should I wish to vacate this Earth without having shrugged off a responsibility during my tenure, discussing provenance and fair wages is a small but necessary step towards helping them navigate a world in which the gap between rich and poor continues to widen, reality is mediated, and apathy is rife.

For those still reading - and well done to you! - this is not a manifesto against Far Eastern companies. It’s trying to better understand why there continues to be a disparity between what something costs to make, and what it costs to buy, whether small or large. If the Far East manufacturers listed in this thread can produce a product that satisfies a minimum criteria for performance, are able to pay the people who make them a fair living wage relative to their working conditions with ameliorated impact on the Earth - then more power to them. If the European and North-American manufacturers listed above do the same, then I would do well to direct my disposable income toward them, rather than those who do not.

But that’s just me.

Take care, bura.

853guy

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853guy
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by 853guy

glepore wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:37 pm
853guy wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:54 pm
Just to be clear, the origin of the wheels is irrelevant to me. Their provenance - i.e. their quality relative to their origin - is.

For $1250, there are many, many carbon-rimmed wheelsets I'd be happy to ride. For $1250 (1), there are very, very few full carbon wheelsets I'd consider riding - especially when real-world data points are virtually non-existent - irrespective of which country they came from.

Best,

853guy

(1) For those that are interested, I'd be keen to know... Of the following, which do you think the manufacturers of a full carbon wheelset has compromised to reach a $1250 price point: robustness, ride quality, quality control, customer support or warranty?
You missed one-margin.
Hello glepore,

Of course. Margin must be factored in.

However, margin will be calculated partly based on how well the workforce is compensated relative to the country they live in and the guarantee of rights that workforce is entitled to dependent on the government’s ability to enforce those rights. It’s easy to offer a product cheaply if the labour that produced that product has their rights repeatedly, regularly, or systemically violated, or in the case of at least twenty four countries currently, not guaranteed at all (1).

How many of the companies so far listed in this thread (DengFu, Lightweight, Spaziale Compositi, Farsports, Gigantex, Berk, Corima, Reynolds, HongFu) could you be sure pay their employees relative to the cost-of-living expenses of the country the workforce reside in, provide a guarantee of rights enforceable by law, and in the case in which an employee falls sick, pregnant or suffers a work-related injury, be taken care of/compensated?

Or to put it another way, which of the above companies would you be happy for your son or daughter to work for?

Best,

853guy

(1) https://www.ituc-csi.org/new-ituc-globa ... he?lang=en

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Lelandjt
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by Lelandjt

I would hope that most readers of this forum subscribe to the same ideals as 853guy and I bet most of us vote with our dollars for companies we feel good about. However, there's such a gap between what some of us can afford to pay for a wheelset ($1000ish) and what LWs cost ($5000ish, more?) that we will never get to make that vote. Just like the Ferrari that will forever be unattainable, these wheels are merely something to admire on the internet. So when someone teases a potential Ferrari clone that's tantilizingly close to attainability we can't help but be tempted to set aside our values for a taste of the good life.

We know it was born from stolen intellectual property and produced by underpaid employees in an environmentally harmful manner.......but........Ferrari, sort of, in my garage! Too bad I'm not Catholic. I'd buy the 2nd generation of these when they come out, then just say some hail Marys as penence while riding off into the sunset.

spud
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 am

by spud

there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in this discussion. We are taught by our fellow snobs to adore the boutique builder (of whatever) and appreciate the hand-crafted quality. Never mind that boutique and hand crafted almost ensure a lack of R&D budget, at least compared to the big guys. Iterations make up for that, but in the case of LW, we are not talking about tens of thousands of wheel sets.

There's no question that the first gen Chinese stuff was trash. There's also no question in my mind that much of their stuff is now pretty solid, employing current tech/fabrication, along with appropriate engineering/testing. Maybe not as polished as the high end brands, but still respectable.

Bottom line - do your research, then do what makes you happy. Personally, I view bikes mostly as a tool to go fast (or whatever mission I'm looking for). I don't want/need a gold plated hammer to drive a nail. But I do need a hammer with appropriate weight, a good striking surface, and a good handle.

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853guy
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by 853guy

Canvas the opinions of riders about Lightweight and it’ll be pretty easy to find someone who’ll say they’re overpriced, overrated, offer a comical level of diminishing returns relative to lesser-priced wheel sets and support a widening disparity between performance and value.

Canvas the opinions of riders about Far East wheel sets and it’ll be pretty easy to find someone who’ll say they’re cheap, unreliable crap guilty of ripping off other’s intellectual property and support a widening disparity between ethics and value.

Though I completely get that many, many people cannot justify the expense of the LWs which remain among the most costly wheel sets in production, the above opinions change nothing about the actual riding characteristics of the LWs, nor their Far Eastern competition, which will still be best discerned over time relative to number of wheel sets actively being ridden in the real world.

Y'know... if stating the obvious hasn't already been covered, and much of it by me.

Best,

853guy

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Almost nothing is truely original. Ideas are are always borrowed from somewhere. We're are all still copying James starleys tangentially spoke wheels design from the 1880's. Everything wheel since then has just been incremental improvements on that, that includes light weight.

liam7020
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by liam7020

853guy wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:49 pm
853guy

(1) https://www.ituc-csi.org/new-ituc-globa ... he?lang=en
You know it's all getting a bit silly when some guy on a forum about push bikes is referencing his piece... Oh my Lord, whatever next!
Belgian Flag S-Works Tarmac viewtopic.php?f=10&t=144553

"Sometimes you don't need a plan. You just need big balls." Tom Boonen

C36
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by C36

Lelandjt wrote: We know it was born from stolen intellectual property.
I doubt, at best, first Lightweight patents expired years ago (assuming they extended them to the 20 years max). Then you have ways to achieve something "similar" without going against existing patents.
To design a wheel you have 100 years of patents to look (expired = you can use).
For example few years ago all the wheels put under tension after "cooking" (lightweight, ada, Mavic ccu) had to check "compliance" with à Spinergy patent. The "look" is a small part of the question


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

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853guy
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:48 pm

by 853guy

liam7020 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:34 am
853guy wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:49 pm
853guy

(1) https://www.ituc-csi.org/new-ituc-globa ... he?lang=en
You know it's all getting a bit silly when some guy on a forum about push bikes is referencing his piece... Oh my Lord, whatever next!
And you know it's getting really silly when some guy on a forum quotes some guy on a forum and the former has a quote from a three time cocaine user with the word "balls" in his signature.

Be well, liam7020.

Best,

Some Guy On A Forum

P.S. You should check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=149561&start=15. Dude, I put in four references.

glepore
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Location: Pa USA

by glepore

FWIW, on the ip front, these particular wheels are nothing like lightweights. No indication that the spokes are continuous from flange to flange. Not sure that flange to flange is a positive thing or matters once the wheel is assembled, it just is. And yes, the patents are long gone.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

liam7020
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by liam7020

853guy wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:13 am

P.S. You should check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=149561&start=15. Dude, I put in four references.
Nah I'll give it a miss Some Guy - I work in science/academia and see pretentious pilgrims like you all the time. It's tedious there and I' m in no hurry to carry it into my fun time. Enjoy throwing your rattle out of the pram Some Guy, don't forget to provide a ref for your source!
Belgian Flag S-Works Tarmac viewtopic.php?f=10&t=144553

"Sometimes you don't need a plan. You just need big balls." Tom Boonen

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853guy
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:48 pm

by 853guy

liam7020 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:59 am
853guy wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:13 am

P.S. You should check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=149561&start=15. Dude, I put in four references.
Nah I'll give it a miss Some Guy - I work in science/academia and see pretentious pilgrims like you all the time. It's tedious there and I' m in no hurry to carry it into my fun time. Enjoy throwing your rattle out of the pram Some Guy, don't forget to provide a ref for your source!
So...

The pretentious pilgrim offers several posts in which an attempt is made to articulate a perspective based on available research.

The scientist/academic offers two posts of petty personal insults.

The irony. Oh, the irony.

Love and hugs always and forever,

853guy

by Weenie


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