45kph Ebike Rocketship - Scott Solace eRIDE 2023

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OtterSpace
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

TLN wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2024 8:14 pm
Bad news about the motor, glad you sorted that out.
I've been asking questions about that bike earlier and picked BMC a while ago. Same motor and going after same approach (road bike on slicks) in the same area. Only have a few rides: impressed with some parts, less impressed with others.
That's a fair view. I kind of view the current state of performance road ebiking like blu ray & HD-DVD vs DVD was when they first game out when they required full bodged P4 computers as set top boxes. A game changer in some ways but kind of clunky and very expensive with better integrated and cheaper solutions coming later. We are very much in the early adopter phase but they are truly a game changer way bigger than the shift to discs.

They are very good for making training rides way more fun and extending how much and how often you ride and there are no excuses for getting out of riding the hardest routes around you which enables more fun more often. I wouldn't commute without it anymore and now my commute is through the bike hills instead of the car infested direct path. This is a massive win for my quality of daily life that is hard to understate or put a monetary value on. Where they are lacking is for really putting the hammer down and feeling the hard hills but I just ride a normal bike a few times a week to fill in those suffering and enjoyment derived from suffering gaps.

The BMC seems the most road bike like of the three TQ motor offerings but I've only seen the marketing photos. Can you share a photo of the downtube and the RD hanger? Also what tire clearance and fender compatibility are you seeing on the BMC?

At this point I want a next gen to be far more aero but still optimized for UDH and very wide tires (~40mm front & ~60mm rear with fender compatibility). This means long chainstays and sluggish handing which I think works well for an ebike that is less about surging efforts and snappy handling than a race bike. The motors & batteries will obviously continue to improve too but just focusing on the bike design side a bit more with that feedback.

I want to see aero improved as a primary goal because as if the platform is more aerodynamically efficient than less assist would be needed to hit, or sustain, a given speed. This would also improve range and battery life too.

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TLN
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

OtterSpace wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2024 9:09 pm
They are very good for making training rides way more fun and extending how much and how often you ride and there are no excuses for getting out of riding the hardest routes around you which enables more fun more often. I wouldn't commute without it anymore and now my commute is through the bike hills instead of the car infested direct path. This is a massive win for my quality of daily life that is hard to understate or put a monetary value on. Where they are lacking is for really putting the hammer down and feeling the hard hills but I just ride a normal bike a few times a week to fill in those suffering and enjoyment derived from suffering gaps.
I 100% agree on training rides and I'm very pleansantly surprised, that it still feels like a road bike, even though a heavier one. I was very surprised to notice extra weight to be honest. I feet that HTA (72.2) makes handling sharp-er and that makes it feel like a road bike.
OtterSpace wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2024 9:09 pm
The BMC seems the most road bike like of the three TQ motor offerings but I've only seen the marketing photos. Can you share a photo of the downtube and the RD hanger? Also what tire clearance and fender compatibility are you seeing on the BMC?
I'll make detailed pictures and post a thread at some point. I believe I got 38mm official clearance. Currently running Challenge strada bianca 36c on 26/28mm internal wheels (so ~38mm) with plenty of clearance. Now I got all the means to get Nextie AGX rims and run slicks that measure ~40mm. Was eyeing those wheels, but my road bike only takes ~34-36mm.

I believe I got regular hanger. UDH is nice, but not a dealbreaker at all. In fact, I'm very happy with cheap Rival XPLR (got it on 3 bikes).
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

OtterSpace
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

Time for the most boring topic ever.... battery health.

As reported in the TQ software my battery degraded by 10% in the past year of use (about 1% deg per 500 miles of max boost use) over 134 reported charge cycles (more on what that means deeper below).
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For a phone 10% deg a year would mean in 4 years 100% charge reported to the user would be equivalent to a new phone limited to 60%. On a phone? Whatever, its cheap enough, you just charge it more as you slowly use it through the day, and by the time it is bad enough to impact usability usually you have the itch to upgrade for other reasons. However, on an e-bike significantly degrading a battery would be absolutely terrible, quite limiting to use and range anxiety, and given this battery is fairly large, proprietary, and integrated into the downtube swapping it out likely costs somewhere around $1.5k... ouch.

Sticking with the phone example I recently begrudgingly upgraded from a very light Pixel 5 ~150g to a Pixel 9 ~200g after waiting too long for phones to get lighter again which sadly never happened. I had purchased the Pixel 5 used and by the end its battery was at about 60% rated capacity as reported in AccuBattery. On that phone I never adapted my charging behaviors from near worst case and I saw around 10% deg per year much like this bike.

So I did some research down some wormholes. People who own an EV, whose batteries are an order of magnitude more expensive still, likely already live this so this knowledge can translate to other spaces. Most of this is common sense but deploying it well can be tricky. Basically, unless needed you want to limit your charge to closer to the middle of the battery (more specifics later), you want to charge at low temps, and at low power (largely related to lowering temps). However, if you deploy degradation mittigations you are effectively self limiting your battery to a degraded state. Therefore, many are dismissive to fully engage with improving charging habits as it sounds counter productive on the face of it. What many miss here is these mittigations should just recenter normal use but should also be totally disregarded fairly often in any situation when extra battery is needed for say a long weekend ride. If you just allow your battery to degrade you can't get the lost range back but with some preperation I likely will reduce battery deg from 10% a year to 2% or less.

Continuing the phone example by deploying mostly best pratices I'm now expecting around 1% a year battery deg on my Pixel 9 instead of the 10% I had on my Pixel 5. Critical details here are the battery cycles per time (day/week/year), charge limit, charging temp limit, and charging power all of which are reported for a phone through Chargie hardware (~$25) or AccuBattery software ($0 - $4) with basically no options on either side for an ebike. Also not shown but very important to finding the right charging behaviour for a given user without overly impacting user experience is the % charging typically starts at.
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While getting high 10% a year deg on my bike and Pixel 5 I would just charge to user reported 100% whenever I was done with the device. For my phone this was charging to 100% every night regardless of how much battery I used and on the bike I would typically get down to 10-20% for a fun ride and then plug the bike in while still hot which during the summer often would display overtemp warnings. What temp is this at? No idea they don't report any of this stuff to a user... error 4407 get stuffed anyone without internal unshared TQ documentation.
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All of these charging behaviours detailed above offer less percent charge per battery cycle per AccuBattery "efficiency" numbers explained below:
eff.png
This is where most people tap out on trying to deploy mitigations and I don't blame them. If you want the best battery cycle to wear charging efficiency you would only use your battery from around 47% to 50% [for most current high density battery chemistries] and then charge back to 50% but thats basically just running hard wired which is obviously impractical. However, perfect is the enemy of good so AccuBattery caps their "Efficiency" score at 887% which I've seen from limiting max charge to 65% or below. This % cap works for my phone because in a typical day I use around 40% (+5/-20)% which keeps me from ever dipping below 20% in a typical day. If I need more charge on my phone I just plug in to unrestricted charging to top off for a few mins. I'll also occasionally charge up to 100% if I am traveling internationally or something else when I don't want to be limited. In those situations a few times a month even if I dont need it the full charge it is nice to have it all charged up and unrestricted. Therefore, on the phone for my normal use case I can comfortably set a 65% charge limit on my Chargie and safely not monitor my battery % through the day and keep my battery very healthy. Meanwhile, on the ebike I use around 80% in a typical very hilly lunch ride meaning I really cant deploy any mitigations without limiting a ride or magically expanding the battery.

Oh wait external battery exist which add 50% user reported extra charge! With an external I can use 80% of the internal and 80% of the external battery and still get to 120% user reported. However, my internal battery was degraded to 90% which makes this (80*0.9+40)% = 112% effective charge getting me back into a usable range while helping mittigate further degradation.
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At the end of the day any use will degrade the batteries but with some planning a user should be able to significantly reduce additive degradation to extend battery life. Unfortuantely there currently is no ecomonical way of restoring any battery degradation.

More on charging later this post is already way too long.

spdntrxi
Posts: 6305
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

rabbit hole...

I've had a Pivot e-Vault for a year now but have not done much other then add a Rudy Ultimate fork and a axs dropper. (Fazua motor) Batteries still charge to 100% atleast.
Just got a second one and converted to flat bar also with Rudy Ultimate fork.
2024 BMC TeamMachine R
2018 BMC TImeMachine Road
2002 Moots Compact-SL
2019 Parlee Z0XD - "classified"
2023 Pivot E-Vault x2 drop and flat bar

OtterSpace
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

spdntrxi wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:12 am
Batteries still charge to 100% atleast.
They can report 100% but personally I kind of doubt they effectively are charging to rated mAh after some use. Something hard to capture well in the above post/rant is the difference between effective charge and user reported charge. As these devices charge there is some wear leveling and they know to always report 100% when they can no longer effectively charge more. For many devices like an etap battery this doesn't matter much but for an ebike that you are eaking every last % out of it really matters. I can further clarify when I post more on charging but I've already neglected enough home duties for tonight.

Phones are starting to report battery deg in second layer menus for those who look. This should start to shift the bar on the way battery wear is reported to a user in the coming years which is a good thing.

In a way I'm kind of positively surprised TQ reports it in their dealer tool. I think the deg can be seen in the charging behaviour but thats another much deeper level into the rabbit hole.

OtterSpace
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

Another boring update to close out the battery stuff so I can move on to more interesting things as this bike is about to get weird with a 50mm+ tire, 1x13s, plus more customizations and I want to capture my thoughts on the GRX RD before then too. I'm also capturing footage for a video which I think would capture this bike better than walls of text.

I doubt charging interests anyone but this stuff matters when using expensive batteries to reduce lifetime platform costs through mitigating battery degredation, which I posted about above. I don't really want to dive in much deeper either and spend too much time typing so I'll keep it brief compared to my usual posts given that this topic will only matter to the nerdiest of nerdy ebike riders.

I've been charging the main battery to roughly 80% reported capacity and the external battery to 80% of its max reported capacity which is 40% given the battery is smaller. However in order to know how long to charge you need to test performance. Also note that the main battery was already degraded to roughly 90% which I think is shown well in the graph as user reported % isn't an amp hour charge level value. Below are my charts capturing reported charge %. Each data point required unplugging the charger to see the reported number but it was tested a few times in the same week. I'll avoid discussing wear leveling here to keep this briefer as well to keep this high level.

The first graph is for independent charging of the internal or external battery in time and user reported % charge. As the battery got closer to max the charging rate slows down so I stopped logging as often in case the charger takes longer to test and start charging the battery at closer to max effective charge.
1.png
The second graph is for charging a fully depleted external and mostly depleted internal battery daisy chained together and charged from the external battery port. For this test near the end of charging the main battery I would check often to see when it switched over to charging the external so I didnt disturb it as often while charging near max main battery levels.
2.png
This data was a PITA to capture so I dont plan to test this again but the learnings helped a ton for charging to the levels I want to help mitigate deg. How effective are the mitigations? no idea yet but the mitigations are fairly easy to deploy.

As you can see charging both batteries starts from the internal which it charges to completion before moving to the external which takes longer. Also while riding the bike will deplete the external battery first before then switching to the internal battery so if you charge the bike right after getting back from a ride the temperature of the internal battery will be elevated. Therefore I've started setting timers to cut off charging and start from charging the external battery only (by unplugging it into the main battery) before then charging the internal battery to allow it to cool.

For those with a TQ bike it should charge at a similar %/time at lower charge levels but depending on your degridation levels it will jump to 100% reported charge from a different number so reported % is not necessarily the true effective % of max if that makes any sense.

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