Pinarello Dogma F12 x-light INEOS

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DHG01
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:14 pm
Location: Madrid

by DHG01

Belisarius wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:35 am

"I consider them advanced from the tech side.." They are not. Carbon was ditched by top makers (e.g. DT Swiss) due to fatigue life cycle. Lightweight had its own learning, and evident geometry lessons learned. Even then, their spokes have a finite life. Like all carbon seats, carbon shoes, everything that 'flexes' in the carbon world has a dual fatigue mode- the actual stress on the spokes, and the UV. For reasons that are obvious, the same logic does not apply to carbon seatposts and they thick and round self supporting shape. Take it to an extreme, in F1 carbon support slats fail very easily, sometimes suddenly, as a matter of frequency and vibration. But if you wish, ask Hambini- he will tell you not having the means to do a lifecycle test. Yes, even top brand carbon 'handlebars' fail randomly, hence my swearing by companies such as Deda- which use F1 grade resins and basic carbon material science, nothign too fancy, but they never break...

Winspace Iffy poor bearings (Hambini), and a solid materials, but, on spokes alone, short lifespan. You might not even notice how or when the wheel start flexing, but flexing it will. Those spokes will reach that one too many load cycles, and then start softening... Could be one, two or three seasons tops, or 15,000 kms - seems a recurrign figure for carbon fatigue in cycling materials (except frames). Anyhow, all this to say, nothign beats thos Sapim or DT Swiss cold pressed martensitic steel spokes....

But, take any Specialized S Works saddle, Fizzik or even Selle Italia carbon, squish them when done (and they bend) and asks yourself, if those fail, WHEN (not if) your winspace carbon spokes fail...
I hadn't read this before. I have a pair of Mavic CCU; they are a few years old and I actually was thinking how stiff they were (though I dont ride them much).

By fail we mean they will brake? Btw, what does UV refer to?
Thanks

by Weenie


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DHG01
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:14 pm
Location: Madrid

by DHG01

Wildstyle5000 wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:25 am
Did a few changes/updates.
Changed to a Rotor Aldhu Carbon crank and a Rotor Ceramic 30mm ITA bottom bracket.
Additionally I upgraded the wheelset to a Zipp 303 (2021).
The wheelset is roughly 300g more than the previous Hypers 38mm while the Zipps are 45mm), while the Rotor Aldhu Carbon saves around 150g.
The braking with the Zipps is much improved. I have the feeling that the spoke tension of the rear wheel is somewhat low (strange noise when riding out of the saddle).

Current build list:

Frame: 988g (Gr 595, incl. derailleur hanger)
Fork: 417g (incl crown)
Seatpost: 216g (zero setback)
Headset: 75g (2x bearing, cable rail)
Spacers: 38g (incl. base plate)
Expander: 31g
Seatpost/stem mounting plates: 16g (8g per piece)
Expander Plate: 15g
Garmin Mount: Most 42g
Talon ultra: 420g 420/100
Wheels: Zipp 303 1570g (incl. tubeless tape)
Tubes: Tubolito 60mm: 2x43g
Tires: Conti GP 5000 25mm: 423g (210g + 213g)
Quick releases: 43g
Bottle cage: Arundel 47g (23g + 24g)
Bottle cage screws: 12g (all 4)
Chain: Force 250g
Shifters: Force 300g (149g + 151g)
Rear derailleur: Force 326g
Front derailleur: Force 177g
Cassette: Sram Red 10-33 215g
Bar tape: BBB 78g (39g + 39g)
Bottom bracket: Rotor ITA30 Ceramic 82g
Rotor Aldhu Carbon incl. Powermeter 36/50: 676g (253g + 98g + 325g)
Chain catcher carbon: 3,1g
Pedales: Shimano Ultegra 249g
Saddle: Selle SMP Dynamic (Carbon): 240g
Brakes: EE Direct Mount G4: 159g (79g + 78g)
Brake pads: 28g
Brake cables: 26g
Brake liners: 65g (17g + 48g)
Final weight: 7.293g (est.)
Final weight: 7.290g (actual)

https://ibb.co/N2DHz3y
https://ibb.co/KsvvJN4

Image
Image
Nice build and nice looking bike. You were spot on with estimates and final weight. The frame is actually not that heavy given the size (knowing it is a Pinarello); comparatively, I was surprised with the weight of the fork.

survivor
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:08 pm

by survivor

This is quite interesting. This F12 X-Light frame with a size 59.5 weighted 988g while on the other post the standard F12 size 50 weighted 992g, albeit it is a disc vs rim frame. I guess this somewhat proved that there is really some frame weight different between the X-Light and standard.

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

DHG01 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 6:47 am
Belisarius wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:35 am

"I consider them advanced from the tech side.." They are not. Carbon was ditched by top makers (e.g. DT Swiss) due to fatigue life cycle. Lightweight had its own learning, and evident geometry lessons learned. Even then, their spokes have a finite life. Like all carbon seats, carbon shoes, everything that 'flexes' in the carbon world has a dual fatigue mode- the actual stress on the spokes, and the UV. For reasons that are obvious, the same logic does not apply to carbon seatposts and they thick and round self supporting shape. Take it to an extreme, in F1 carbon support slats fail very easily, sometimes suddenly, as a matter of frequency and vibration. But if you wish, ask Hambini- he will tell you not having the means to do a lifecycle test. Yes, even top brand carbon 'handlebars' fail randomly, hence my swearing by companies such as Deda- which use F1 grade resins and basic carbon material science, nothign too fancy, but they never break...

Winspace Iffy poor bearings (Hambini), and a solid materials, but, on spokes alone, short lifespan. You might not even notice how or when the wheel start flexing, but flexing it will. Those spokes will reach that one too many load cycles, and then start softening... Could be one, two or three seasons tops, or 15,000 kms - seems a recurrign figure for carbon fatigue in cycling materials (except frames). Anyhow, all this to say, nothign beats thos Sapim or DT Swiss cold pressed martensitic steel spokes....

But, take any Specialized S Works saddle, Fizzik or even Selle Italia carbon, squish them when done (and they bend) and asks yourself, if those fail, WHEN (not if) your winspace carbon spokes fail...
I hadn't read this before. I have a pair of Mavic CCU; they are a few years old and I actually was thinking how stiff they were (though I dont ride them much).

By fail we mean they will brake? Btw, what does UV refer to?
Thanks
UV- ultraviolet, attacks CF like no tomorrow, and is multifold more concentrate 24" above hot asphalt (reflected).... So it really depends on the carbon mass, thickness and properties... A thin spoke, rubbing against another, has very little thickness and width and a completely different fatigue cycle vs cold pressed high tensile steel (Sapim, DT Swiss). Such components will rub rub, soften, or, modulus relative, fray and snap. Take saddle rails- and how thick they are- for me, 85 kg rider early season, by 15,000 kms max those saddle rails squeak and flex... Got a few blisters from Selle Italia Demo saddles that in just months, once handed to me, were noodling while riding...

Therefore, thin CF spokes? No way unless they are 5-6 mm thick... I have studied or worked too long in aerospace. When ENVE proposed me their carbon hub, I immediately rejected the offer, prefering the finnickier CK... Sure enough, ENVE was shortly after redesigning its hub, reinforcing it (I still passed on it) CF really hates high stress points on thin mass.... Ask Hambini and he will explain the issues. BTW, it can fail, in thicker variation, even on F1 car (suspension) or Front wing, relative to vibrations. So a bump too many, a rail crossing, something minor on most days, and ping!! BTW, I am sure that you heard, soem Winspace wheel owners already had snapped spokes...

DHG01
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:14 pm
Location: Madrid

by DHG01

Thank you; good contribution.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Wildstyle5000 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:38 pm
Got a good deal on a Pinarello F12 x-light frameset (rim brake). Could not let it go! I was inspired by Filippo Ganna. I really like the look of his bike

Frame size is 595, model 2020, color: INEOS (black with white decals).
Plan to build it up with Sram Force AXS, Rotor Inpower Aldhu 50/36, Winspace Hyper wheels 38mm, eebrakes, etc.

Will post the detailed spec including weights as soon as I start the build. Currently waiting for some parts.
Have you any idea tire clearance? Is it 25mm on X-12?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

Wildstyle5000
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:33 pm

by Wildstyle5000

28mm tires will work without any problem, currently I run 26mm Pirelli and plenty of space...

Wildstyle5000
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:33 pm

by Wildstyle5000

Did some updates. Will post some pictures within the next days. Changed the bottom bracket to Ceramicspeed coated, crank to Sram Red 50/37 with powermeter (works better than the Rotor) and the EE brakes from black to el Fuego. Really nice bike love to ride it.

Updated build list:

Frame: 988g (Gr 595, incl derailleur hanger)
Fork: 417g (incl crown)
Seatpost: 216g (zero Setback)
Headset: 75g (2x bearing, cable rail)
Spacers: 38g (incl. base plate)
Expander: 31g
Seatpost/stem mounting plates: 16g (8g per piece)
Expander Plate: 15g
Garmin Mount: Most 42g
Talon ultra: 420g 420/100
Wheels: Zipp 303 1570g (incl. tubeless tape)
Tubes: Tubolito 60mm: 2x43g
Tires: Pirelli P Zero Race 26mm: 429g (213g + 216g)
Quick release Zipp titanium: 65g
Bottle cage: Arundel 47g (23g + 24g)
Bottle cage screws: 12g (all 4)
Chain: Force 250g
Shifters: Force 300g (149g + 151g)
Rear derailleur: Force gloss 326g
Front derailleur: Force gloss 177g
Cassette: Sram Red 10-33 215g
Bar tape: BBB 78g (39g + 39g)
Bottom bracket: Ceramicspeed ITA Dub Coated 81g
Crank: Sram Red AXS 172,5 inkl Powermeter 37/50: 616g
Chain catcher Carbon: 3,1g
Pedales: Shimano Dura Ace 9100: 235g
Saddle: Selle SMP Lite 209 Sattel (Carbon): 280g
Brakes: EE Direct Mount G4 el Fuego: 159g (79g + 78g)
Brake pads Zipp Platinum Evo: 28g
Brake cables: 26g (front/back)
Brake liners: 65g (17g + 48g)
Final weight: 7.290g (est.)
Final weight: 7.310g (actual)


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