Thick Weenies & Aerodynamics

[TBT]

Evening folks,

So I'm going to preface the following with an apology for two things, the "eye roll" question that will inevitably turn some of you away and the length of the post I am writing. If you'd care to stick it out I'd honestly appreciate some feedback from other cyclists instead of my LBS.

My name is Luke and I have been cycling for nigh on 15 years for fitness, this was a means to keep me in reasonable shape as I played rugby & hockey up until the beginning of the pandemic. Since March time and the end to club contact sports as we know them, I have moved toward cycling pretty quickly and found that in fact I enjoy it at least as much if not more than the aforementioned sports.

At the end of May after some back and forth I decided I was going to upgrade my £400 boardman to something more substantial and on the advice of a 'friend' (LBS frequenter) purchased a 2020 Emonda SL6 Disc Pro. Now at the time of purchase I had done some research into the weight / aero thing and ultimately decided it probably wouldn't affect me too much as I would likely drop weight, get stronger and fitter over the coming months and as such any bike would suit.

Since then I have indeed dropped some weight, I have fallen from 104kg @ around 10-12% body fat, to around 90-92kg at around the same body fat. Now I know this is fairly heavy for a cyclist, but this is pretty small and pretty lean for me and the lightest I've been in probably 10 years, because of this I do feel that getting much lower in weight may begin to be an issue, I.e. I would lose power significantly.

In terms of fitness I have felt my cardio pick up slightly but in terms of endurance I begin to struggle around the hour mark during zone 4 rides. Alongside the above I have noticed that my power range is on the lower end currently, FTP is around 190w for 1 hour but my sprints are pretty significant, I can hit and maintain 1100+w for 10 seconds at a time without absolutely breaking my soul. Which to me makes sense having spent many years training for very quick explosive sprints and recoveries.

Ultimately this has lead me to the question of whether or not going any lighter than my current 7.5kg ish bike will be of any benefit to me or whether I should (as is now being recommended by a different bike shop) trade my bike in for something far more aero, in turn leading me to the question of whether more aero (50mm+ wheels, aero bar, aero helmet etc) would be the bst option of all.

I am particularly fond of climbing and have climbed around 24000m since I bought my bike, will either option make me any faster ?

I can ride short 30km outings at a steady 30km per hour solo, I have done metric fondo's at around 24-25km/h, I have done a couple of group rides and held a steady 34kmh average but getting dropped heavily once the power houses begin putting out 3w/kg upward.

Is any of the above actually relevant or am I just getting suckered into the latest and greatest marketing ?

I know it's all pretty personal and relative to my fitness / weight / conditioning etc but felt maybe some of you could offer your experiences or stories that may be of benefit.

Deep down I feel that maybe I just need to concentrate on getting stronger, fitter and faster, I know I'm never going to sit in the peloton but I guess every little advantage helps.

Cheers in advance for any responses all,

L.

[hlvd]

Why don't you buy the wheels and helmet as they can be taken over to your next bike in the future?

As someone who's around 106kg currently but was 95kg at my fittest (I'm 6'6") I can say that the thing that made me faster was fitness, the more I trained the faster I was.

[NiFTY]

As a heavier rider you will benefit less from a lighter bike than a light ride as it will be a lower percentage of the total unit weight. (Rider + bike). Aero is always going to trump weight for everyday riding anyway.

Saying that if you have just got this bike i would keep it and just keep training. On long rides it is your ftp not aero or bikeweight that is limiting you. Your watts/kg at ftp is low. If you are 90kg and lean and presumably don't have a disability and are under 60 you should be able to train your ftp to 300w easy (thats 3.3 w/kg and is below average for a male cyclist according to cycling analytics) https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2 ... ut-compare)

Do some base and intervals. Ride with stronger riders and you will gain strength quickly.

[RyanH]

I'm inclined to move this to the Training forum as I think the biggest area of improvement is to be had from training. Equipment gains will be a few percent at best but a 3w/kg ftp would be almost a 50% improvement and should be easily obtainable with a light training routine.

Can you go over your current cycling regimen?

[TBT]

I'm inclined to move this to the Training forum as I think the biggest area of improvement is to be had from training. Equipment gains will be a few percent at best but a 3w/kg ftp would be almost a 50% improvement and should be easily obtainable with a light training routine.

Can you go over your current cycling regimen?

In all honesty I was torn between 'intorduce yourself' and 'training' based on what I was posting, if you feel it would be better suited then by all means I'm happy to be placed wherever I will see the better advice.

In all honesty I am typically not riding to a training programme at the moment, I leave for and arrive from work in the dark, typically work 9-11 hour days on a construction site, have 3 children ranging from 5 months to 9 years and during the winter months will almost exclusivley get my weekday rides on Zwift post 20.00 ... I know, excuses before I even needed them

Of those rides theyre normally 2w/kg socials or TT's on Zwift, on weekends I ride with friends whenever possible, typically anywhere between 30-150km, mostly undulating rides at the slowest riders pace (circa 22-24km)

I have considered some training programmes on Zwift or maybe signing up to Trainer Road, but as of right now havent done either.

I can only assume thats going to be the advice moving forward ?

[RyanH]

You can get a lot of bang for the buck replacing the social rides with zwift races while keeping your weekend rides the same as those are the reason we ride bikes, right?

I'm probably not a good person to compare against as I have had many years of riding 7500 to 10k miles annually and I respond well to any form of training but for most of covid I've been riding around 5 to 6 hours per week with typically 3x50 minutes of zwift races on the weekdays and my ftp is somewhere around 4.25 to 4.5w/kg.

If you want advice on what to buy to make you faster, we can provide that, just tell us what you want to be faster at. However, if you'd like to not get dropped, that'll be a training discussion.

[TBT]

You can get a lot of bang for the buck replacing the social rides with zwift races while keeping your weekend rides the same as those are the reason we ride bikes, right?

I'm probably not a good person to compare against as I have had many years of riding 7500 to 10k miles annually and I respond well to any form of training but for most of covid I've been riding around 5 to 6 hours per week with typically 3x50 minutes of zwift races on the weekdays and my ftp is somewhere around 4.25 to 4.5w/kg.

If you want advice on what to buy to make you faster, we can provide that, just tell us what you want to be faster at. However, if you'd like to not get dropped, that'll be a training discussion.

Its pretty much a mixture of both, as mentioned earlier I have ridden for fitness for a long time, albeit an entirley different focus. Its only since looking into upgrades for my current bike I was advised (and I quote...) "the Emonda is a brick, forget wheels, chop it in and get something with at least SOME aero qualities to the rest of the frame" that I began to question whether I was wasting money on wheels. I did take this with a pinch of salt and walked away from the retailer, but felt like maybe I should reach out to the more informed and actually get some qualified answers.

Over spring / summer I rode probably a 50/50 split solo or small 3-5 group ride, over winter I will be focusing on zwift as my main riding / training tool with the hope that next year a club may be available to me in order to improve further. In terms of equipment, I'll typically buy what will help and isn't hideous, I'm not going to drop several 000's on an aero frame / wheel set for marginal gains as I am aware that these aren't where my focus should be right now.

I suppose my question should have been "did I drop a ball with this bike and is it going to hold me back ?" rather than what I wrote.

In terms of discussion, I think training may be more important than equipment for me right now ... but if 50mm hunts are going to help me keep up with a group on the final sprint, I'd like to know that too.

[bilwit]

Ultimately this has lead me to the question of whether or not going any lighter than my current 7.5kg ish bike will be of any benefit to me or whether I should (as is now being recommended by a different bike shop) trade my bike in for something far more aero, in turn leading me to the question of whether more aero (50mm+ wheels, aero bar, aero helmet etc) would be the bst option of all.

I am particularly fond of climbing and have climbed around 24000m since I bought my bike, will either option make me any faster ?

Is any of the above actually relevant or am I just getting suckered into the latest and greatest marketing ?

...

Deep down I feel that maybe I just need to concentrate on getting stronger, fitter and faster, I know I'm never going to sit in the peloton but I guess every little advantage helps.

well.. what are the goals? you should quantify that first. We all love having cool bling cycling kit but nothing replaces fitness. If getting a new bike makes you happy and keeps you motivated, by all means go for it, but any real practical performance-related benefit will be marginal. If you're itching to get some nice stuff go for a nice set of wheels. Those will give you the best bang for your buck in terms of aero performance, weight, and price... and if you plan accordingly you can use them down the line with any new bike you get in the future (unless you're going from rims to disc or whatever).

[maxim809]

Hi and welcome.

Your bike is not holding you back.

Maybe an unpopular truth, but speed has nearly everything to do with the rider. The ways a bike can noticeably hold you back are:

1. If the bike does not fit the rider.
2. If gearing or tires are mismatched for the terrain.
3. If the bike is grossly unmaintained... bordering on damaged or is damaged.

But I have seen strong cyclists ride fast on a bike that is completely a suboptimal fit for them, or still keep up with a fast group while unable to shift due to drained battery or broken cable.

Aeroness and lightness of equipment are factors that can marginally improve speed, and equipment can be very fun to discuss and use as carrots for motivating our training or to shave marginal gain when fitness hits a seasonal plateau. But the rider is the engine that carries the majority of both the weight and aerodynamic drag. Thus, if the desire is to get faster, all attention should be focused towards sharpening fitness and bike fit.

[Slammed]

Is any of the above actually relevant or am I just getting suckered into the latest and greatest marketing ?

Yes. Just buy whatever bike that makes you want to ride it. You're worrying way too much about small, insignificant details. You're pushing peanut watts on recreational rides. It really doesn't matter what gear you have. Spend your money on some training tools and gain 100 watts.

[RyanH]

Aero gains for a sprint are going to be measured in fractions of a wheel length. Most often in amateur group rides, my experience has been that sprints are won in much bigger increments.

Frame differences are relatively small. Non aero frame and bars is roughly 420w at 48kph and aero is 402w at 48 kph (roughly off the top of my head). Bars are around 5 of those watts so, again, not much for the frame.

[Mr.Gib]

I concur with the sentiment that your current bike is just fine. If you love bikes and don't mind spending money then have at it- buy a few nice bikes if you want, but they won't help. Yes peanut watts as noted. You are a massive person in this sport - 1100 watts is childs play for someone your size. You should be able to get to 1000 watts seated. Focus on the training. (But you will love and benefit from a nice set of aero wheels.)

[N.T]

Like others already stated stick with your current bike if it fits you properly. It won`t hold you back.
Training is the primary thing that will make you faster at this point so focus on things that will make it as enjoyable as possible.
Nice riding wear for example. Also some proper cork bartape and fast tyres make huge difference on bike feel and don`t cost too much.

[liketoride]

I am also a bigger rider like yourself and i can confirm all the above is true. your bike has very little to do with you not going fast. your power is holding you back, i never had power when i first started but my brother is 150kg and pushes 190w/ftp like yourself. his bike is not holding him back and neither is yours. you mentioned loving to climb and i love that too, how big are your climbs and what gearing are you running?

[TBT]

Thanks for the responses so far folks !

I did think that most responses would be geared toward getting fitter / stronger myself rather than banging a load of money into gear in the hopes it would help.

To answer the few questions:

Bilwit, in all honesty the aim is just to be the fittest / fastest / most capable I can and be able to join in some of the faster rides locally as well as on zwift. Ultimatley the answer is in my own statement but I guess it just nice to see it coming from somewhere else too.

liketoride, I dont have a typical climb to give details for in all honesty, my rides vary from day to day. As an example, I rode on zwift most of this week, climbed Alpe du zwift fully once and done varying lengths of it on other days. Today I went out with a friend and we rode 67km over 2.5 hours ish which had around 1000m of climbing, one climb was around 2km at 9%+ gradient I rode that in 34/23 or 34/25 depending on how hard I was pushing (granny-ing I know). Gearing again will vary based on who I am riding with, what type of ride it is, how fit the person / people I am riding with are. I am looking into joining one of the training programmes and some races on zwift to have a little more consistency than the above for training though.

I am struggling with getting involved in any decent externally run training at the moment as all of my local clubs are not accepting new members and only running limited number group rides once a week due to covid-19. So I am hoping zwift will be suitable to try to bring up my wattage over winter. Accounting for the fact that I am not putting out much amount of power at the moment, will this benefit me in terms of seeing improvment quicker ? easier ?

I will be keeping my current bike for the time being and will look at picking up some new 50-60mm wheels in the next few months. Any recommendations ? Up to say £1k

Cheers,

L.