Budget S-works Tarmac Di2 Disc brake build, new member.

Who are you (no off-topic talk please)

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mlyonsdc
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

I know S-works and budget dont really go in the same sentence but that is at least how it started out lol.
A little intro on myself and how I got to the point of building this bike and posting about it on here.

I started with Triathlon about 8 years ago and have a S-works Shiv Tri I spent a bunch of time and money on and have been continually messing since I bought it in 2014.  Its not very light by any means but it is very fast.  While I have done a bunch of tri's with it including one full IM and have trained extensively on it, I still do almost all of my training on my road bike.  My current road bike is one that I built out of a cheap carbon Javelin frame I bought on Ebay in 2012 and it has served me well but it is long overdue for an upgrade.

Before I got into triathlons and cycling I was a hardcore gear head (and pretty much still am!) and have built and owned some really cool street cars I used to drag race.  Being a gearhead the first time I walked into a transition at my first tri I was hooked on the bikes and have been obsessing over all the small details of building them and racing them ever since. Including the weight of everything which is ridiculous when I am 170cm and 75kg.  Anyway, this year I decided to go all in on cycling after being out of tris since my last big race at IMLP70.3 in 2017.   I did a few time trails this year and did pretty decent at them which has me even more exicited about riding more.

My current road bike is a Javelin that is actually fairly light considering it is a cheap frame with Ultegra 10sp, Stans Alpha 340 tubeless wheels with a powertap.  The only real issue with the bike is that it flexes a lot, especially if I am on the gas out of the saddle and climbing.  I literally have to open the rear brake caliper up all the way to stop it from rubbing.  The bike was in need of some maintenance and repair so I started looking into upgrading the drivetrain on this bike but then decided to just build another bike altogether and keep this one as a back up or bad weather bike.  So I started looking for a frameset or bike to build and I almost stopped when I found the Canyon site with a new Aerohead rim brake 105 bike for $2999 and the Di2 Ultegra disc was $4999, I thought I was done it checked all the boxes including price, except they didn't have any in my size and the ones they did have in my size were over my budget.

I came across a 2016 SL5 Di2 Disc brake S-works Tarmac frameset for $1250 on ebay, that was NEW in the box and was coming from a certified Spesh dealer.  At first I was concerned about it being a knock off but the seller had a ton of feedback and was a legit bike dealer and had an actual bike shop in WI.  I pulled the trigger as he was giving me what I thought was a pretty good deal for a really high end frameset.  I just didn't realize at the time how much had changed with disc brake bike design since 2016 and that some of those issues made building this bike a little more challenging.  I had a bunch of big plans for the bike which changed daily I initally wanted SRAM etap and tubeless clinchers but ended up in a totally different direction. I just completed the bike and will post more about the build and the bike over the next few days. For now here are a few pics of the new frameset and my current rides. The pic of the weight on the frameset is exactly how you see it on the stand, fork headset BB spacers and seat tube hardware.
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mlyonsdc
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

I put together an excel spreadsheet for my bike build which I used to help sort out what parts I needed and would use. My wife and even the LBS owner who helped me with the build think I am nuts and yet I seem to somehow manage to find a place on the internet with a bunch of people who obsess over stuff like this,lol! I tried different ways to get the info out of excel to post on the msg board but it really didnt work well. Most fo the weights listed are advertised while some are actual weights. Some of the smaller stuff I couldnt find weights on I didnt weigh since I dont have a good bench top scale handy so I made a guesstimate.

Part Make Model Weight Actual Weight
Frame 52cm Specialized S-Works Tarmac 1580g Actual wt with uncut steer tube, spacers, stem cap expansion plug, BB, headset, seat post clamp, derailleur hanger
Shifters Shimano Ultegra Di2 ST-R8070 360g
Brake Calipers Shimano BR-RS785 271g 119 each no pads or fluid
Brake Rotor Front 160mm Ultegra 128g
Brake Rotor Rear 140mm Ultegra 108g
20mm Rotor adapter 18g actual weight
Front Derailleur Ultegra Di2 132g
Rear Derailleur Ultegra Di2 240g
Cassette 11-32 Ultegra 287g
Chain Ultegra 253g
Crankset power meterS-Works Power Cranks 170mm 440g
ChainringsPraxis 52/36 Chainrings 151g
Chain Ring Bolts Specialized 15g
Battery Shimano Ultegra Di2 50g
Handlebar Junction Box Di2 EW-R910 3g
4 port Junction Shimano Di2 SM-JC41 3g
Bluetooth ANT+ Shimano Di2 EW-WU111 3g
Wires 600,500, 300,1200,500, 700 5g
Brake Lines Shimano BH90 75g
Handlebar 40cmProVibe Aero Compact 211g actual weight
Bar Tape ProVibe Black/White 56g
Stem 110mm -10* 3T 4GXL 175g
SeatTube Bat Holder Shimano 5g
Wheels Roval CLX40 Tubular 1380g Rear wheel with glued up tire, skewer cassette and rotor was 1440g
Tires Vittoria Speed G+ Tubular 400g
Skewers Roval Titanium 100g
Pedals Speedplay X2 198g actual wieght
Seat post Specialized S-works 195g
Saddle Specialized S-works Power 159g
Saddle Bag Specialized SWAT Road Bandit 100g
Bottle Cage Specialized Rib Cage II w/ Tool Not currently on the bike
Bottle Cage Specialized Rib Cage II 40g
Total Estimate: 7141g
Actual wt of the bike is 7.33kg completely assembled with exerything listed above. I wanted to get the bike under 7kg and have a few planned upgrades that should actually get me close. With a full size tubular spare CO2 and tire change parts, bike light, Wahoo Element and mount it came out to 7.82kg with everything on it I will carry when riding. I didnt think that was to bad considering the spare tub, tools and light weigh 385g.

Future Upgrades:
I have been just trying to get the bike together and will start shaving grams off from where it is now. I have a few changes planned which are Ti spindles for the pedals, SRAM Red 1190 11-32 cassette, an Extralite stem as soon as I figure out if 110mm and -6 or -12 is the right size and possibly going to a 140mm from brake rotor and getting rid of the adapter bracket for the 160mm. These upgrades should get me close but I will probably need to dig a little deeper to get under 7k.

Before I drop a ton of money on a new stem I need to dial in my fit on the bike so I need more time in the saddle. I have already moved the saddle around a few times at this point. While I have my Tri bike fit really dialed in I have not spent as much time on the road bike fit and not sure where I am going to end up at in the end. I did set the bar and saddle height to the same measurements on the tri bike to start with which left me with some room to move on the steer tube.

I am not exactly sure what is going to work well for me on the new bike. My old road bike had a 0 offset seat post with almost the same length top tube as the Tarmac at 540mm and I had a 120mm -17 stem and 15mm of spacer underneath. On the Tarmac I have 20* offset seatpost and a 110mm -10 stem with 25mm of spacers underneath. I just moved the saddle forward another 5mm which seemed to work well but now my knees and elbows are close when in the drops or even low on the hoods so I may want to go to a 120mm stem.

Build Details:
SL5 disc vs SL6 disc, while I question the actual performance advantages of the SL6 over the SL5 frameset the design on the SL5 definitely presented a few challenges. When I purchased a 2016 frameset I would have never imagined it being out dated in just 3 years as far as bike design goes. The whole SCS wheel design, post mount brake calipers and a 135mm QR rear hub spacing all made finding parts and putting this bike together a little more difficult. Plus I had zero experience with disc brakes and Di2 prior to this build. I initially wanted SRAM 11sp Etap as I really love the one on my Shiv its so simple and works so well! Unfortunately they have discontinued making them for the new 12sp version which I just was not interested in doing at this point. Shimano only offers one post mount brake caliper the RS785, so I had to piece together a groupset which was interesting even when I got into the BH90 vs BH59 brake lines being different on the older calipers vs the newer style 8070 shifters which was a MUST have with the buttons in the hoods. Then the whole SCS rear hub BS that Spesh came up with which seems to make no sense at all. In the end all I did was swap out for a normal rear derailleur hanger that was even included with the frameset. I also compromised on tubulars, I have been riding tubeless on both my road and tribike for over 4 years now and really love them. I got such a deal on the CLX40's I just couldn't say no at $500 and they were brand new. Plus I do like the ride tubulars give I just hate carrying a full size spare and there is zero way of making that thing look good on the bike. I was able to wrap a Vittoria Corsa up tight enough to get into the Spesh SWAT set up under the saddle.

Costs:
Lastly, I did say this was a budget build and it was. I initially just wanted to update my road bike and planned to only spend $3k on doing so which went out the window quick. The total cost of this build was just over $5k which I was happy with considering I used all NEW parts and nothing used and it is an Sworks. I did go with Ultegra vs DA due to costs. The derailleurs and shifters were going to be the only differences in the drivetrain and difference in weight was only 107g which is pretty paltry considering the cost of DA. Plus I wanted to use the Medium cage RD with the 11-32 cassette. While I could have used the short cage DA with an 11-30 and probably been just as happy, the SRAM 1190 11-32 is actually a ligther option so I went with Ultegra.

Thanks for reading hope you enjoyed. Please feel free to comment or offer advice especially on fit and future upgrades. I had a ton of fun putting it together and may actually build another bike sooner than later. I really like the SL6 builds I have seen on here and they have some pretty cool paint schemes so who knows. Plus I found Boris who really hooked me up on some good deals and seems to be well known around here and gives awesome deals on Spesh framesets.
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by Weenie


mdabell
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:41 am

by mdabell

Great job. I have SL5 disc as well and have encountered similar issues with outdated specs as well.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

SCS drivetrain geo was something pushed by shimano to maintain spec on the 405mm stays, XTR calipers will drop weight as would some custom low profile tubs.

Seat post, stem and bars are all ways to drop more weight too.

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mlyonsdc
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

mdabell wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:45 pm
Great job. I have SL5 disc as well and have encountered similar issues with outdated specs as well.
Thanks, what do you run for rotors, 140mm front and rear? Any reason to NOT run a 140 on the front?

mlyonsdc
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

Nefarious86 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:46 pm
SCS drivetrain geo was something pushed by shimano to maintain spec on the 405mm stays, XTR calipers will drop weight as would some custom low profile tubs.

Seat post, stem and bars are all ways to drop more weight too.

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
Thanks the XTR calipers are something I am going to look into and was unaware of.

Low profile tubs? New/different tubulars? I have Vittoria Corsa Speed G+ on there now?

I am still baffled by the whole SCS deal, it makes no difference, the CLX40's I bought were supposed to be SCS rear hub. When I mounted the wheel with the SCS rear derailleur the bottom 3 cogs will NOT line up with the RD. I put the std hanger on and everything is good. I ran the chain down to the 36/11 and do not see any issues with it rubbing or havign a more out of whack chain line than my road or tri bike has. I did read that the original concept came from using a MTB 135mm QR rear hub. The SCS designed HUB was different and moved the cassette in 2.5mm which supposedly had a better chainline with a shorter chainstay. I dont see it though, with a normal 135mm QR rear HUB and a std RD hanger there are zero issues that I can see. The pic below shows it with a 36/11 chain line and the normal derailleur nothing rubs and it certainly isnt hitting the chainrings or even what I would think is out of spec for Shimanon at >30*? I am starting to think is was some BS that Spesh came up with for marketing, especially when there are other bikes out there with 135mm QR spacing and non-SCS hubs and less than 420mm chainstays?

Stem I am all over as soon as I figure out exactly what length and ht I want the bars at so I need some miles on it first.

The bars I thought were fairly light for an aero bar that also hides all the Di2 cables. If I go with something lighter I give up some aero advantage and maybe some asthetics with having everything nice and tidy up front. Those Pro-Vibes are 211 actual wt which I thought was pretty good.

Open to suggestions on a seat post. The current one is a Sworks with seat clamp is 195g actual weight.
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mlyonsdc
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

Here is SCS vs STD RD hanger. The SCS moves RD in 2.5mm
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Alexbn921
Posts: 633
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by Alexbn921

SCS was not pushed by Shimano. It was a total farse that Speciialed dreamed up to keep super short stays. Otherwise Shimano should not warranty the drivetrain on a 135 spacing bike. It uses a 132.5 spacing with a a 130 hub spaced over to the non drive side. If you use a crappy non SCS hanger then the frame needs to stretch and it never does evenly. I hope you got the frame for a killer deal. Also the drive side is no longer supported by the dropout and only the axle is it's the threw axle. The threw axle will be too short too. Hopefully your bike uses QR.
Rant over. It's a great bike and I hope you enjoy it.
Last edited by Alexbn921 on Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

mlyonsdc
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:57 am
SCS was not pushed by Shimano. It was a total farse that Speciialed dreamed up to keep super short stays. Otherwise Shimano should not warranty the drivetrain on a 135 spacing bike. It uses a 132.5 spacing with a a 130 hub spaced over to the non drive side. If you use a crappy non SCS hanger then the frame needs to stretch and it never does evenly. I hope you got the frame for a killer deal. Also the drive side is no longer supported by the dropout and only the axle is it's the threw axle. The threw axle will be too short too. Hopefully your bike uses QR.
Rant over. It's a great bike and I hope you enjoy it.
The frame is definitely a 135mm rear spacing and uses a QR skewer. The one pic shows the two derailleur hangers that came with the bike. The one is SCS and you can see it moves the RD inboard 2.5mm, the other is a std hanger that has the RD in its normal location.

The pic I posted above of the chainline is with a std hanger and the RD in the normal position with a wheel that has a std 135mm QR rear hub and the chain on the 36x11. The bike shifts flawlessly and has zero issues. Nothing needed stretched or tweeked to set it up like this. As a matter of fact I got this wheelset on a deal since it was supposed to have the SCS rear hub but it is not and has a std 135mm rear hub. The SCS rear hub was 135mm hub they modified to move the cassette inboard 2.5mm to use with that stupid SCS RD hanger. This wheelset will not fit with the SCS hanger but works perfectly with the std hanger and to my eyes I dont see any issues with the chainline in the pic I posted?

With the std RD hanger I can run any new style disc brake wheelset by changing the end caps from the 142mm TA to a 135mm QR end cap. Most wheel manufacturers supply them with the wheels or offer the end caps for purchase. FYI I got most of this info from Roval/Spesh themselves. Again I think the whole SCS idea was unnessecary and just created a stupid amount of confusion. The frames with problems are the TA design SCS rear hubs they used on I think the Crux, the RD hanger on those can not be changed and people with those bikes are stuck having to find wheels with SCS hubs.

FYI I was not aware of the whole SCS issue when I bought the frameset and you are right it is probably one of the reasons it was so cheap ($1250 NIB). In the end though it really made no difference since it works fine with the std RD hanger and Spesh even shipped the frameset with both RD hagers and told me it would be fine to use with a std RD hanger, lol.
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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Actually it was a requirement from Shimano if they wanted to maintain the short chainstays to match the rim brake model. As you said if they didnt do it shimano wouldn't accept the frame geometry.

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mlyonsdc
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by mlyonsdc

Nefarious86 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:16 pm
Actually it was a requirement from Shimano if they wanted to maintain the short chainstays to match the rim brake model. As you said if they didnt do it shimano wouldn't accept the frame geometry.

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I realize that but question if it is actually true. Weren't there other bike manufacturers making disc brake QR 135mm rear spacing frames at the time without SCS hubs? Plus if you take the current SL6 Tarmac I can take the wheel off that bike swap end caps and bolt it on my bike without changing anything other than the end caps on the hub. This would mean the chainline on the new SL6 is pretty much in the same position as it is on my bike and both have the same length chainstay at 405mm. The rear hub spacing on the SL6 would 142mm more to accomodate the 12mm TA design than to have anything to do with chainline, at least this is from what I can tell?

So the whole SCS thing is BS. If you have a bike with SCS and a QR you can chuck the SCS hanger and swap on a normal one and your done its now the same as any other disc brake bike other than it uses QR instead of 12mm TA. Spesh never had to do the SCS thing to begin with, and Roval confirmed it when they told me to do exactly this when I was looking at buying a new pair of CLX50's. What blows my mind is Spesh said they developed the SCS specifically for the disc brake Tarmac??

Here is a good write up I found when I was trying to figure this mess out.
https://nextcycling.com/blogs/news/scs- ... me-i-guess

Here is the quote:
Quick release SCS bikes are 135mm disc bikes. Plain and simple. Basically just a quick release mountain bike. 135mm spacing to make room for the disc brake. Quick release so the wheel centers fine. They are regular old bikes, NOT SCS AT ALL!!!! That is the "ah hah!" moment here, if there is one, that I hope you take away. These quick release (rear) bikes are SCS only in that Specialized put a 130mm disc road hub on them, with a funky SCS hanger to make it all work! All SPECIALIZED ALUMINUM ALLOY FRAMES are QUICK RELEASE and therefore NOT REALLY SCS. They just have some SCS bits bolted to them (hanger, wheels).

That is right, the only thing SCS about a quick release bike is the SCS road disc wheel that they put on these things, with a special SCS derailleur hanger to essentially convert the frame from "regular old bike" to SCS to make it shift with the SCS wheel in there. All you need to do is to purchase a regular old derailleur hanger for your bike, either from Specialized or the Wheels Manufacturing #146, or other third party replacement hangers. Once that is installed, you have a regular bike.

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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

When I was researching SCS bikes, I was looking a thru axle ones. They used a 132.5 hub. QR looks to be a less bastardized system.

mlyonsdc
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Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:18 pm
When I was researching SCS bikes, I was looking a thru axle ones. They used a 132.5 hub. QR looks to be a less bastardized system.
Aahh yes the 12mm TA SCS bikes are screwed and have to use SCS wheels. Hope is the only one who continues to make a SCS hub for 12mm TA and I dont think they are cheap either.

Your right I remember reading about having to stretch the rear to try and get those to work and I think Spesh made a new RD hanger for those too but it didn't work from what I remember reading.

xcnick
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

Never mind the bike-look at that workshop! Is that your garage or is it a proper workshop (as in a business) ?

It’s absolutely immaculate.

by Weenie


mlyonsdc
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:17 pm

by mlyonsdc

xcnick wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:12 pm
Never mind the bike-look at that workshop! Is that your garage or is it a proper workshop (as in a business) ?

It’s absolutely immaculate.
Thanks, it is my home shop/man cave, I put an addition on our house last winter and it is still a work in progress. I am a bit of a gearhead and have a few hot rods too. Here is a pic of the whole shop just after I got the lift in which was just in July.
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