Colnago C64 - Inside and Out

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r4nd0mv4r14bl3
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:26 am

by r4nd0mv4r14bl3

@Calnago

Thanks for your very in-depth comment. You may be right that the root cause is possibly related to how well the bearings were installed in the first place. Unfortunately, I am unable to tell anything about facing. Both the old bearings and new ones were installed in the factory. The frame was returned to the factory because of failing paintwork and re-painting meant that they also replaced all small hardware (headset bearings, threadfit cups, seatpost clamp). New hardware was installed in factory and I also got back the old parts (threadfit cups use blueish thread-lock compound, if anyone's interested). So, only after getting the frame and all old parts back I discovered that the old lower headset bearing was feeling rough. It could not be the result of pressure wash, because I don't do that. My guess is that the lower seal does not provide enough water resistance, but of course I cannot rule out the possibility of faulty bearing.

The new headset bearings are quite smooth and probably packed with grease (don't spin freely). Judging how they sit on the headtube, there was probably minimal or no facing done, but I could be wrong. My gut feeling is more towards negative expectations about this. That would correspond to the painting and re-painting quality control, which does not seem to be their forte these days. Could be my bad luck, of course.

fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

Question: i just bought a c-64 disc. I'm getting one without the integrated stem and accompanying fork so my disc brake wires wont' go get hidden. I thought the c-64 disc just came out. i could have opted for the colnago stem combo but it was going to cost roughly $500 more and given I won't be using an electronic group set i didn't think it worthwhile.

has colnago been making disc for some time? i'm just confused that there are c64 disc's out there that don't use the integrated stem solution
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

by Weenie


maxice
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:05 pm

by maxice

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 pm
Question: i just bought a c-64 disc. I'm getting one without the integrated stem and accompanying fork so my disc brake wires wont' go get hidden. I thought the c-64 disc just came out. i could have opted for the colnago stem combo but it was going to cost roughly $500 more and given I won't be using an electronic group set i didn't think it worthwhile.

has colnago been making disc for some time? i'm just confused that there are c64 disc's out there that don't use the integrated stem solution
Yes the integrated version only started shipping at the end of last year I think

fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

maxice wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:38 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 pm
Question: i just bought a c-64 disc. I'm getting one without the integrated stem and accompanying fork so my disc brake wires wont' go get hidden. I thought the c-64 disc just came out. i could have opted for the colnago stem combo but it was going to cost roughly $500 more and given I won't be using an electronic group set i didn't think it worthwhile.

has colnago been making disc for some time? i'm just confused that there are c64 disc's out there that don't use the integrated stem solution
Yes the integrated version only started shipping at the end of last year I think
thank you. $500 didn't seem worth it for me. others may feel differently
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

maxice
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:05 pm

by maxice

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:53 pm
maxice wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:38 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 pm
Question: i just bought a c-64 disc. I'm getting one without the integrated stem and accompanying fork so my disc brake wires wont' go get hidden. I thought the c-64 disc just came out. i could have opted for the colnago stem combo but it was going to cost roughly $500 more and given I won't be using an electronic group set i didn't think it worthwhile.

has colnago been making disc for some time? i'm just confused that there are c64 disc's out there that don't use the integrated stem solution
Yes the integrated version only started shipping at the end of last year I think
thank you. $500 didn't seem worth it for me. others may feel differently
I didnt think there was any difference in price between them? I specifically ordered the integrated version but paid extra for the Art Decor colourway

Seedster
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:05 pm

by Seedster

There is an upcharge for the integrated models, which started delivery in December 2018, due to the addition of a stem and revised fork.

If you are running mechanical it makes little sense to buy the integrated version as there may be degradation in performance by routing mechanical shifting cables internally.

In the U.S., AD colors are not typically marked up. I have seen a price difference ex-U.S.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by Seedster on Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8526
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

r4nd0mv4r14bl3 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:57 pm
@Calnago

Thanks for your very in-depth comment. You may be right that the root cause is possibly related to how well the bearings were installed in the first place. Unfortunately, I am unable to tell anything about facing. Both the old bearings and new ones were installed in the factory. The frame was returned to the factory because of failing paintwork and re-painting meant that they also replaced all small hardware (headset bearings, threadfit cups, seatpost clamp). New hardware was installed in factory and I also got back the old parts (threadfit cups use blueish thread-lock compound, if anyone's interested). So, only after getting the frame and all old parts back I discovered that the old lower headset bearing was feeling rough. It could not be the result of pressure wash, because I don't do that. My guess is that the lower seal does not provide enough water resistance, but of course I cannot rule out the possibility of faulty bearing.

The new headset bearings are quite smooth and probably packed with grease (don't spin freely). Judging how they sit on the headtube, there was probably minimal or no facing done, but I could be wrong. My gut feeling is more towards negative expectations about this. That would correspond to the painting and re-painting quality control, which does not seem to be their forte these days. Could be my bad luck, of course.
Facing is done at the factory, before paint, then the headset cups are pressed in before shipping. The headset bearings should feel exactly as you describe... smooth to turn with your fingers. Of course they are packed with grease so they will not just "spin freely"; they are not CULT bearings that you find in their wheels and SR cranks. So, if they're turning smoothly, then all should be good. The seal is very good, as good as any bearing imo. And with a coat of grease over top, it would be quite difficlut for fine sand etc to make it's way into the actual rolling bearings. The "transparent plastic" piece that you exposed when removing the seal is simply the backside of the carrier for the bearings. You say you've had maybe 2-3 rides in wet conditions. So, to make a statement like you think the water sealing is not very good seems a bit odd as well. If I could only show you some of the conditions mine have been ridden in... and they are fine.

You say "judging by how the bearings are sitting on the headtube, there was probably minimal or no facing done". Huh? How can you possibly say that without seeing the faces themselves? I sure couldn't tell anything about mine until I removed the cups from the headtube. I just had a hunch that something wasn't quite right from the bit of roughness I could feel in the bearing. A dealer would have assembled and sent it out the door for sure. It was by no means "bad", and I was probably being overly particular to go through the trouble of removing the cups and "facing" the headtube. I put "facing" in quotes because I really wasn't removing any structural material, just the clearcoat and paint the accumulated on one side of the edge of the headtube rim while drying.

Got a picture that headset/headtube that shows what you see which makes you think no facing was done? "Minimal facing" by the way is how it should be done. Just remove enough material so that you can see a square smooth edge around the entire rim of the tube... it doesn't even have to be all the way across the edge thickness either... just enough so that there are no low spots/high spots that would throw the squareness of cups out of whack once the flanges of the cups make full contact all the way around.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8526
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 pm
Question: i just bought a c-64 disc. I'm getting one without the integrated stem and accompanying fork so my disc brake wires wont' go get hidden. I thought the c-64 disc just came out. i could have opted for the colnago stem combo but it was going to cost roughly $500 more and given I won't be using an electronic group set i didn't think it worthwhile.

has colnago been making disc for some time? i'm just confused that there are c64 disc's out there that don't use the integrated stem solution
You are doing a mechanical install, correct? You did the right thing in my opinion by not going the integrated route. There's some horrific bends that have to take place that have just got to compromise the performance of a mechanical drive train. With electric, it doesn't matter, the only inconvenience being the initial routing and possible maintenance down the road. In my opinion, the whole integrated thing has gone too far, with unnecessary added complexities, trap doors, bolt together stems, rattling internal wires that you discover after your first "test ride" then go "WTF!.." as you realize you have to disassemble the whole thing and stuff bubble wrap in places you never dreamed would need bubble wrap and zip ties to make your dream steed silent.

Colnago has been making disc frames available since the C59, although very few people opted for it. But the full integration thing is quite recent (with the C64), although I remember them doing a limited edition bike that had quite a proprietary integration of Di2 when most Di2 installs had external junction boxes and the hideous external battery. But, now they seem to be chasing the trends, like everyone, not wanting to get caught behind, and the total integration/hiding of all cabling is one of those trends.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

r4nd0mv4r14bl3
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:26 am

by r4nd0mv4r14bl3

Calnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:19 pm
Got a picture that headset/headtube that shows what you see which makes you think no facing was done? "Minimal facing" by the way is how it should be done. Just remove enough material so that you can see a square smooth edge around the entire rim of the tube... it doesn't even have to be all the way across the edge thickness either... just enough so that there are no low spots/high spots that would throw the squareness of cups out of whack once the flanges of the cups make full contact all the way around.
Just to be clear, it was only my guess about the facing status. If you say that they do it before painting, then it's probably OK. I was under the impression that it's done after painting and there would be a hint of a nice square edge. Anyway, I will try to take a close-up shot tomorrow. and post a picture. Cheers!

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8526
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Yes, the "real" facing is done before paint. If you've ever seen the BB shells of C59's, the edges were often completely covered in thick paint. I would always face those BB shells to remove that paint, but I suspect that the vast majority of shops just screwed the cups right in without worrying about it.

Faced C59 BB shell...
Image

Unfaced Shell (EPQ, same lug as C59)... it's the whole frame when new... but if you look close you can see that the entire edge of the BB shell is still coated in thick white paint. I faced it that so that it looked like the shell on my C59 above...
Image
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

Calnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:32 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 pm
Question: i just bought a c-64 disc. I'm getting one without the integrated stem and accompanying fork so my disc brake wires wont' go get hidden. I thought the c-64 disc just came out. i could have opted for the colnago stem combo but it was going to cost roughly $500 more and given I won't be using an electronic group set i didn't think it worthwhile.

has colnago been making disc for some time? i'm just confused that there are c64 disc's out there that don't use the integrated stem solution
You are doing a mechanical install, correct? You did the right thing in my opinion by not going the integrated route. There's some horrific bends that have to take place that have just got to compromise the performance of a mechanical drive train. With electric, it doesn't matter, the only inconvenience being the initial routing and possible maintenance down the road. In my opinion, the whole integrated thing has gone too far, with unnecessary added complexities, trap doors, bolt together stems, rattling internal wires that you discover after your first "test ride" then go "WTF!.." as you realize you have to disassemble the whole thing and stuff bubble wrap in places you never dreamed would need bubble wrap and zip ties to make your dream steed silent.

Colnago has been making disc frames available since the C59, although very few people opted for it. But the full integration thing is quite recent (with the C64), although I remember them doing a limited edition bike that had quite a proprietary integration of Di2 when most Di2 installs had external junction boxes and the hideous external battery. But, now they seem to be chasing the trends, like everyone, not wanting to get caught behind, and the total integration/hiding of all cabling is one of those trends.
bike store said, only do integrated if you are going elecronic or strongly considering it in the future. i'm not . i'm happy with mechanical. thank you for your insight
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

fromtrektocolnago
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm

by fromtrektocolnago

maxice wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:56 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:53 pm
maxice wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:38 pm
fromtrektocolnago wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 pm
Question: i just bought a c-64 disc. I'm getting one without the integrated stem and accompanying fork so my disc brake wires wont' go get hidden. I thought the c-64 disc just came out. i could have opted for the colnago stem combo but it was going to cost roughly $500 more and given I won't be using an electronic group set i didn't think it worthwhile.

has colnago been making disc for some time? i'm just confused that there are c64 disc's out there that don't use the integrated stem solution
Yes the integrated version only started shipping at the end of last year I think
thank you. $500 didn't seem worth it for me. others may feel differently
I didnt think there was any difference in price between them? I specifically ordered the integrated version but paid extra for the Art Decor colourway
i went art deco as well. after studying the options this was what i wanted. i was not impressed with the non art deco versions.
Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Colnago C-64 disc(ultegra) with Bora 35 wheels

matvalse
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:18 pm

by matvalse

@calnago, where do you take the last picture?

NTX
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:19 pm

by NTX

Will a shimano BB86 bottom bracket work on the C64’s?

Also, any idea of the setback on the c64 seatpost? Or are there options?

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8526
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

matvalse wrote:@calnago, where do you take the last picture?
Presuming you mean the frame only shot of the PR99 frame... at the end of a dock on Lake Washington.
NTX wrote:Will a shimano BB86 bottom bracket work on the C64’s?

Also, any idea of the setback on the c64 seatpost? Or are there options?
Yes, the Shimano will work. No problem. It’s a standard 41mm pressfit interface. Just make sure you get the right BB for BB86.
Standard setback in Colnago posts is 15mm. I understand that they make the C64 posts in 30mm and 0mm offsets as well, and I would hope also available with your initial frame order, as opposed to having to purchase one in addition to the one that comes with the frame.
Last edited by Calnago on Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


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