Colnago C64 - Inside and Out

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bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

It's a Ferrari but it's a bike.looks good in an add way.

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

Moving on down we have the Direct Mount brakes, as far as I know the only rim brake option being offered... looks like those holes could use a bit of facing, just to remove excess paint on the mounting surfaces of the holes. This is a totally normal thing, and no builder worth going to would not face those mounts before assembly...
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I've had much to say about Direct Mount brakes lately, so I won't clutter this thread up. I'm sure you know where the Direct Mount Brake thread is on weight weenies. I now believe they have their place, and if you're running wider rims, that's where that place is. It's not the height clearance; as a matter of fact Shimanos DM brakes have no more height clearance than the 9100 standard mount brakes. But where I see a possible advantage now, is the geometry of the brake arms and where the pivot points are can better cope with a really wide rim than say, Campy's skeleton brakes. I hate to say this, but I'm not really impressed with Campy's offering of DM brake calipers. At least not compared to Shimanos. For me, who is fine with my widest rims being Campy Boras at 24.2mm at the brake track, I would actually prefer standard mount brakes. Campy’s standard mount calipers are quite simply of a much higher build quality than their lone Direct Mount offering. And if I went with Direct Mounts on a bike like this, which I'd have to, I would first try out Shimano's 9100 DM brakes to see how they work with Campy's levers, because I'm not giving up my Campy in every other respect. I did try the standard mount 9100's with Campy levers on my Koppenberg, but they didn't play as well together as I would have hoped. I'm curious if the Shimano DM brakes might play better with Campy levers. Bontragers DM brakes apparently have a cam type adjuster so you can adjust the pull ratio to match the levers you're using. That's nice, but they're just so damn industrial looking. Shimano's new caliper brakes are gorgeous, and super stiff, regardless of whether you get the Standard Mounts or the Direct Mounts. Still things for me to work out in this area, but a bike like this would force the issue for sure, since standard mounts are not an option.
Last edited by Calnago on Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

majklnajt wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:26 pm
They dont do make it with horizontal top tube?!?
Did not knew that....
Nope, no horizontal top tube anymore... a bit sad, but I'll get to that in a bit.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Lightweenie wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:30 pm
I thought the headtube shape was like that to facilitate integrated disc-brake routing (in combination with the new stem)...
I'll have to look into this a bit more. Mabye if I can get some more access to it, I'll pull out the fork and have a better look in there. I know the steertube has kind of a groove in it to pass some internal cabling along its length, and the inner steertube has kind of a built in compression plug and anchor bolt to apply bearing preload, so that's nice. That's a weight saving area for sure, and makes assembly simpler.
That new stem probably won't be available for a little while yet. And being a mechanical drive train and rim brake kind of guy, I'm going to have to apologize in advance for not really checking out all the disc brake routing options etc. But perhaps I'll get to that when I realize after posting what I currently do have, that I really should get a closer look at a couple more scenarios.

I think part of the headtube shaping like that may be simply structural, as many manufacturers have been doing that for some time. It's not quite as pretty to my eye. And I should have gotten more of a side profile shot to show the angle that the headtube takes between the top tube and down tube. But as an example of the stress points in a crash... take a look at my first C50, which suffered an untimely an unfortunate fate... oh, and by the way, this was no normal crash... and the header on my garage shows the scars to prove it.... I know, I know...
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And the design of say, a Trek Emonda SL Size 60, H2 geometry... not my favorite look aesthetically... but quite common these days. Whatcha gonna do...
Image
Last edited by Calnago on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

liam7020
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by liam7020

The indents on the forks and at the back of the head tube remind me so much of the HP chainstays - a gimmick thst makes no real structural difference to the functionality of the frame. Someone once asked a Rabobank mechanic what was the differance between the HP and the normal chainstays? "About a 1000 Euro...."
Tarmac SL6 & Campag Record EPS https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 0&t=153968

"Sometimes you don't need a plan. You just need big balls." Tom Boonen

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ok, let's move a bit over and take a look at one of the more controversial design changes... the placement of the cable port in the center of the downtube rather than on the sides. Sure, if you have an electric system, then photos from the side are much nicer as you don't see those unsightly redundant cable ports. But how does that bode for us mechanical drivetrain types...
A close look at the cable port...
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The trouble with just looking at the port, is that you have no idea how the cables are going to transition into it. You've all seen the pics of the traditional cable routing, which takes a big S-bend and is impossible to avoid rubbing the head tube...
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So just how long do you think it would be before that rubbing goes through the paint, unless you have some unsightly patches (even the clear ones are unsightly to my eye) on your head tube at the appropriate rub spots. Rather, I prefer the cable routing wherever possible to take the loop around the head tube then cross internally inside the downtube...
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Even with the bars turned this acutely, there is no cable rub...
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The cables routed as I've done in the above photos never come close to the headtube and the smoother bends can't help but improve the shifting performance, as each bend in the cable housing adds at least some friction. And yes, I know you electric guys have an advantage here, as electrons don't care what kinds of curves they have to take. But of course, when they decide to take a detour and your bike stops working, it's next to impossible to find the little buggers.

So, in order to kind of simulate the bend that a derailleur cable would have to make in order to get to the new port location, I basically did just that. I took a derailleur cable and inserted it into the port then turned the steertube all the way to where bars (if they were installed) would be hitting the top tube. I was able I think to get a very good indication of what that might look like with a stem and bars installed (I think the stem on it was a 110 or 120mm, and it was pretty much sitting on top of the top cap. This particular bike was a 52 sloping for reference...
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I'm realizing now upon looking at the pic that it's not showing the entry point into the port. That is perfectly fine however... it's not having to make a sharp kink to get in there. My only concern would be the size of the loop that the cable has to make out the side. I think it will be just fine, at least on the larger frames. You don't want it so big that when climbing aggressively your knees have a chance of hitting up against it, because that is super annoying. But you still need enough cable that in the even of a crash, or just anything that might see the bars get rotated all the way to the top tube, the cable doesn't get ripped out of the frame from being too short. As for the entry into the port however, I was pleased. I still prefer the side entry for sure . So while I don't think this new entry position is going to compromise mechanical shifting, I don't think the end result will be quite as elegant from an aesthetic viewpoint.[edit: it's been a couple weeks or so since I first wrote this and I have since changed my mind about the cable port being where it is... I quite like it, as long as you use the routing where cables cross internally in the downtube. Read on...]

Here's a pretty good view of how all the cables enter my C60... quite nice and unobtrusive... don't think I'd be able to get the routing quite this nice on the C64, but I'd have to get one in my hands to see...
Image
Last edited by Calnago on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

liam7020 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:25 pm
The indents on the forks and at the back of the head tube remind me so much of the HP chainstays - a gimmick thst makes no real structural difference to the functionality of the frame. Someone once asked a Rabobank mechanic what was the differance between the HP and the normal chainstays? "About a 1000 Euro...."
Yup... I think that's probably the main function here as well. I get the added structural support behind the headtube in that critical area, but I don't really get the "indents" as you call them. I think I would have preferred just the smooth version, especially on the fork. Still, not a deal breaker for me.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ok... let's now meander southward along the downtube to the luxurious Italian designed swimming pool created for the waterbottles. I've heard two advantages being cited relating to this change. 1) It saves weight; and 2) it's more aero. First let me go wash my hands of the hair I just pulled out of my head in frustration over claims like this. Lol... ok, that's better. First, saves weight? Really... how much? Nevermind, I just don't care to argue about it. Then comes the aero part. Well, I don't care but I know some do, so let's examine that a bit. I get that if you can sink your water bottle into the massive downtube that bikes have these days, then sure, that's probably going to be more aero. Good for you if you think that makes you faster. But, let's just see how a water bottle cage fits in there. I brought one of my unused Arundel Mandibles to test out. Now, the Mandibles actually have two sets of mounting holes allowing you to go higher or lower depending on how your frame might be configured. I tried both. First, let's have a look at the crevice itself...
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Two things... it's too deep to accommodate my Mandibles, which means you would have to use some spacers, which in turn kind of takes away the "sunken" aspect, and along with it, any intended aero benefit. Secondly, the length of the pool doesn't allow for the Mandibles to sit inside it freely. If you use the lower mounting holes, the lower end of the cage will not fit in the recess, therefore forcing you to ensure that the spacers you use put the bottle in a position that would be flush with a tube which had no swimming pool in the first place. So, try the higher mounting position... same thing except now the front end can't fit in the recess for the same reason. I'm sure you can find cages to fit, but it would have been nice if these fit from the get go. They are a very popular water bottle cage. It's kind of hard to see in the pics, so I hope I've described it well enough for you to visualize what's going on underneath the cage...
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Oh, and I almost forgot... crevices like this, especially underneath a waterbottle cage, are a pain in the ass to keep clean. Dirt, dust combined with water or worse, sticky dried sports drinks, just loves to collect in these areas... hence why I called it a "swimming pool". This was a design change I could have easily done without. Oh, one final claimed consequence of this design is that the ridges created by the recess actually improve structural rigidity. Ok.

I think I'll come back to finish things off a bit later... hope you're enjoying it so far.
Last edited by Calnago on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Sjoerd
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by Sjoerd

I sure am, wow this is nice to read and watch.

defride
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by defride

New Colnago's have definitely perked my interest in the brand. Liking the direction they've taken things despite the cable routing and bottle cage arrangement you've identified as fairly so so. Cheers for the insights

Like for like I've generally found that when you take a significant chunk of mass out of a frame, same design, it livens up the ride, can go wrong of course. Will be interesting to hear some feedback.

FFS though, this is WW, you've access to a bare frame and fork and we still don't know whether those weight charts are even close to for real???!!! (:

thebman
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by thebman

Incidentally, that EXACTLY where every time I drop my chain, is where it scratching the the pain actually (Super Record Mech) - even with a chain guard. Ironic!
Calnago wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:02 pm
Look565w wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:39 am
Image

What does the “silver logo” on the lug mean? Do you have any idea, Calnago?
I don't know what that little logo itself actually "means", but in a nutshell my understanding is that's where a hole is during production that they can peek in and make sure everything is going ok, and perhaps even have better access to the insides to make sure the cable routing holes are free of any carbon residue from the molds, at least that'd be my guess. Then they plug it up at the end and cover it with that logo. Curious why they did that and brought such conspicuous attention to it... not sure why they just don't plug it up and finish it perfectly along with the rest of the lug. Mabye they want to brag about how they're checking every little detail along the way during the production process.

bencolem
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by bencolem

May I recommend EE Direct mount brakes. Have them on my ESX and they’ve brilliant - and rather pretty. Would suit this frame well.

dolophonic
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by dolophonic

Cheers .. going to be fun ! :up:

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Calnago
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by Calnago

defride wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:08 pm
Like for like I've generally found that when you take a significant chunk of mass out of a frame, same design, it livens up the ride, can go wrong of course. Will be interesting to hear some feedback.

FFS though, this is WW, you've access to a bare frame and fork and we still don't know whether those weight charts are even close to for real???!!! (:
Damnit! I knew I'd forget something. Or maybe I'm just doing what a good writer does, and not reveal everything in the first chapter. I've got weights, at least I do now thanks to your reminder post. Thank God I'm not on Slowtwitch, cuz I'm not sure how meaningful the data from me standing in a wind tunnel holding a bare frame would be. Never was much for wind tunnels anyway.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Totally disappointed. I clicked on this thread hoping to see Calnago wearing nothing but a Park Tool apron.

Re the cable entry port on the top of the downtube, my Parlee is very similar and allows a clean entry and no cable rub on the head tube with the much desired cross in front of the headtube and cross again inside the downtube routing. On the C64 the recession looks like it might force the cable to sit closer to the headtube but I suspect you still might be able to do a clean cable job. Is it possible to cross cables inside the downtube?

Like you point out that water bottle cage recess will mean more pain then gain. Even if you get a cage to fit, forget about cleaning in there without removing the cages.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

by Weenie


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