Colnago C64 - Inside and Out

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jimaizumi
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:48 am

by jimaizumi

You have to give Colnago a great deal of respect though. They aren't deviating from the traditional look unlike Pinarello and their drastic re-design following the prince and Dogma 65.1 think-2's. This also lends some support to the likes of Derosa and their King's too (though they need to get that rear brake back on the seat-stays. So having that said, any changes are minor and the best part is that you can have something like a C40, compare it to a C60 and both will look like classics!

I'm still looking out for a PRZA Extreme Power/EPS in a size 50s... Anyone?
:oops: THE PAST: 2005 Cannondale R700, 2006 Specialized S-Works Tarmac Gerolsteiner, 2009 Pinarello Dogma FPX My Way, 2011 Time RXR VIP

:D THE PRESENT: 2016 Colnago C60 ST01, 2017 Wilier Cento 10 Ramato

:wink: THE FUTURE: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

TurboTommy
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by TurboTommy

SuperDomestique wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:20 pm
TurboTommy wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:13 pm
Really useful thread thanks calnago.

I’m still undecided whether to get an F10 or C64 (sizes 59.5 & 58s respectively). My current bike is an s works tarmac (61cm), and from geo charts alone it looks like I can get both those frames to fit similar to my current set up. Although I hasten to add, I won’t buy the frame of geo charts alone. Particularly as I’m not super confident on Colnago fit in general and I may fit a 56s. It is a real shame that Colnago don’t still offer the traditional geometry as that would of made my decision a little easier I think.
Shoot me a message or email and I can draw you a few cads of your setup on the Colnago sizes that work.
That would be fantastic many thanks. I’ll send you pm tomorrow.

glepore
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by glepore

Cal, that's the truth. Prior to buying a C40 last year, I've only had one other, a Technos that I've owned since 96. Thank my stars I never let her go, even though I only ride her 5 or six times a yer now. Part of the fam, and a work of art sitting still. And still impressive to ride, if I don't have a group of guys on Supersixes to chase.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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Calnago
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by Calnago

This morning I noticed a new thread started asking about the aesthetics of the dropped seatstays you see on a lot of bikes these days. Right away, a light went off because that was actually one of the talking points I wanted to address in this thread. It's part of the reason I took the picture of the rear brake housing port in the top tube... but I'll get to that in a minute.

First, my thoughts on the subject...
Dropped SeatStays = Dropped head on table, pounding fists... U G L Y !!

Let's look at a few pics, I know there's an obvious brand implied in the photos... but I'd rather keep that out of this thread for now and just concentrate on the idea of it all, from engineering, practical and aesthetic points of view. There's lots of manufacturers doing this, including the Colnago Concept.

First up...
Image

I'm not a Professional Engineer, but when I put my Intuitive Engineer's cap on, I can't help think that the traditional unadulterated double diamond shapes of a bicycle frame is one of most efficient and strongest structures that could have been designed. The seatstays, seattube and toptube all meet at the same point at, let's call it the "seatcluster". There's got to be a lot of stress at that very point, downward and rearward right where the seatpost meets the seat tube. And the double diamond shape with everything meeting at the seat cluster intuitively seems able to support and cope with those stresses in a most efficient manner, at least better than having the support a fair ways down from that critical junction could. I know, nothing's likely to break and I'm sure it's plenty strong, but still... I kind of like seeing the seatstay, butting up against the back of the seattube essentially at the same place the seatpost is entering the frame. You know... like bicycles have by and large been designed for many years. I figure previous engineers, unfettered by all the marketing trends, designed it that way for a reason.

But, then the aero wars came along, and all of a sudden aero wisdom decided that fundamental changes to bike design can make us oh so much faster. How much faster?... well... nevermind for now, but if it matters to you that much, just ignore what it looks like and go get one. So, the stays have been dropped, largely for the aero gains. Whoosh! Ok, I get it.

But now let's talk about some of the practical aspects of dropping the seatstays and just assume that structurally all is good, despite the assault on my visual sensibilities. So... now we have to put on brakes... and let's also assume that we're using rim brakes, and that we've already experimented with putting them behind the bottom bracket, which no one liked, and that discs are a viable option, except that now we have to backtrack a bit from when we were saying that discs aren't aero, so why would we put them on an aero frame... oh my... we're all so confused. But damnit... we can sell this, for sure we can sell this... aero, discs... the whole shebang. The Motherlode the industry so desperately needs. Yay!

Another pic is appropriate here...
Image
Now lets get that rim brake mounted... whoa Nellie... that just don't look right (head scratch). Hmmm... we can't really route the brake cable in the traditional lovely smooth graceful arc from the top tube directly down to the brake caliper arm. The contorted bends it would have to make would surely wreak havoc on our braking action. So... great idea... let's just exit it out the bottom of the toptube and cut her straight down to the brake. That'll work. Hmmm... I guess it works. Ok... it works. Nuff said. You can decide if you like the looks of that brake cable and it's routing for yourself. Maybe discs would be a better alternative with this arrangement. But it certainly is a great transition point to start talking about the aesthetic side of things.

And now's the time I'm going to bombard you with a barrage of photos of a few bikes and their very traditional seatcluster arrangments where the seatstays, seattube and top tube all kind of meet up in the same relative place on the seattube, and the brake cable follows the natural lines created.

My goal whenever running a rear brake cable is to get as smooth a line as possible from the top tube down to the brake caliper, arcing nicely around the seat cluster then following as parallel a line as possible to the seat stays, finally finishing up with a straight shot into the brake caliper arm. Sounds simple enough, right? Yet, just look around at all the contorted bends that brake cables seem to take during this journey on various bikes. Too long, too short... ouch... sharp bend ahead. It's really not that hard to get it jussst right.
Here's my C60...
Image


My Trek Emonda SL...
Image


My C59...
Image


My EPQ...
Image


The Koppenberg...
Image

Ok... stop right there... the Koppenberg cable routing above is just perfect. I couldn't ask for anything more. Comes out of the top tube at a nice angle, keeping it well away from the seatpost yet not jutting out so far that it's rubbing your thigh. Then it gradually arcs down that straight path I talked about to the brake caliper arm. Super simple. Super clean. Super efficient....

But wait... you know what... a few grams can be saved in the top tube center channel if we just reshape the sides of the top tube a bit to give it some more strength through reshaping and take out a bit of material in the middle to save weight, tons and tons of weight (Colnago engineers also used this idea in their downtube swimming hole). Yes... we'll just move the brake cable exit point over to the middle a bit, and voila we saved yet a couple more grams..., ok so it wasn't tons and tons... you get the idea...
Behold... the newest toptube design from Trek... used in their current Emonda SLR and Domane range of bikes...
Image

Image
So, as you can see from the above... the shaving in weight kind of messed with my holy grail of cable routing philosophy in that the cable now rubs the seattube and there's also a nice little swimming hole that can collect water and potentially channel it right down that exit hole. It's still perfectly functional from the practical side of things with a nice smooth approach to the brake caliper, but this was one "new and improved" design feature that helped sway me towards biting the bullet on the Koppenberg when I had the chance, and it was mostly an aesthetic thing. I just liked the looks of the Koppenberg's design much better. Although without question what I was really after was having road race geometry (Trek H1) in a beefier frame than the Emonda SLR. And that was the Koppenberg... now extinct. Heavy and non-aero... it had to be a black sheep from a sales and marketing perspective. But it was Cancellara's favorite ride. And now it's mine and I love it. Ha.

So, the above photos were just to display some aesthetic choices to the dropped seatstay trend. You can decide for yourself which you prefer. And that brings us back to our featured frame of the day... the C64...
Oh yeah... so that's why I took this picture....
Image
Because with the brake exit port where it is, as I dress this baby up with my eyes... I can see no problem in coming up with a beautiful outcome from all perspectives... engineering, aesthetic and practical. This girl will have no trouble getting a date to the prom.
Last edited by Calnago on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Hellgate
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by Hellgate

No photos of your buddy's wife? I'm disappointed...

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kgibbo1868
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by kgibbo1868

Thanks for this thread Cal! I love the details and amount of thought you have put in. I think tomorrow I’ll read this entire thread again as there is a heap of good info to digest.


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Pain is my friend!

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Hellgate wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:02 am
No photos of your buddy's wife? I'm disappointed...
Ha... I'll see what I can do about snapping a candid iPhone video of her right before starting up a hill... remember to take special note of the gear she's in before the climb, and the process that takes place while she tries to find a gear appropriate for the climb. Wait... didn't I tell that story in another thread? I think so, so this post is probably lost on this thread's audience. Oh well... I'm losing track. You are referring to my story about getting her electronic shifting, right?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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godzuki26
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by godzuki26

I am really enjoying this thread. Love all the pics and detail.
:arrow: BH Ultralight
:arrow: Litespeed Ghisallo
:arrow: Scott Addict Singlespeed
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Likewise with your thread @godzuki26. I equate trying to teach my buddy’s wife how to shift properly with some of your trials and tribulations between you and yours.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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godzuki26
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by godzuki26

Lol. To all who followed my wife’s thread, she is still horrible. She sucks:(
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:arrow: Litespeed Ghisallo
:arrow: Scott Addict Singlespeed
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ha, you’ve just made me feel so much less guilty about poking fun at my friends wife. If she gets upset I’ll just say be thankful @godzuki26 isn’t trying to teach you how to shift.
Last edited by Calnago on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Lightweenie
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by Lightweenie

I agree that in general classic seatstay positioning should give a smoother cable routing from the top tube to the rear brake, but I think one reason that the example pictures of your bikes are so smooth has to do with the frame size. I have a size 52 slight sloping frame with classical seatstay attachment, and it is impossible to use traditional cable-outer without it either being too short, or pushing the cable stop at the top-tube upwards out of its socket. Linked housing thankfully solves this quite elegantly...

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jimaizumi
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by jimaizumi

Ah, the dreaded rear brake cable... That picture of the Allez is utter junk but you know what? I don't think you really see many bikes that share such a poor design as the one you posted above. Its lasagna night for me so I'll keep this rant brief and in a rush (there is nothing more sacrilege than a lasagna that's not mouth burning hot).

I just flew over to my Cento 10.. and while the EE brakes add a bit of an odd kink into the cables, it would look very very similar to your C60's had I used the Duraace calipers. Since I'm too lazy to snap a pic (nor have I even started a new thread), I'll just have to improvise and "borrow" another one off the net..and also because its lasagna night...

Image

The cable cradles are actually on an angle

Image

So, I guess having a dropped seat stay or not really shouldn't affect the smoothness of how the cables are mounted and perform.. Yeah, I know that there are are a good handful of frames out there that have questionable cable entry/exit designs but hell, other than that, I can't see any real issues...

Its lasagna night and I do love my lasagna
:oops: THE PAST: 2005 Cannondale R700, 2006 Specialized S-Works Tarmac Gerolsteiner, 2009 Pinarello Dogma FPX My Way, 2011 Time RXR VIP

:D THE PRESENT: 2016 Colnago C60 ST01, 2017 Wilier Cento 10 Ramato

:wink: THE FUTURE: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

glepore
Posts: 1103
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: Pa USA

by glepore

Yes, your right, my Cento Uno with DA looks pretty smooth.

Personally, I believe that the shorter load path of dropped stays contributes to the harshness of aerobike ride. No engineering to back it up, just intuition.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

garypremo
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area

by garypremo

Calnago - You and I could be on this forum for another 20 years and never agree more completely on any topic as dropped seat stays. I fully endorse your comment from above: <<First, my thoughts on the subject...Dropped SeatStays = Dropped head on table, pounding fists... U G L Y !!>>
2016 Colnago C60 PLWH 61 CM Traditional Geometry

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