Colnago C64 - Inside and Out

[Calnago]

Get the frame first and foremost. You won't regret it. Ultegra 8000 would be just fine... blasphemy doesn't even enter into it. Well... maybe if it was SRAM.... I KID, I KID! Parts is parts... you can always upgrade them if you want later on. But yes... I don't want this thread to turn into a best prices for Shimano thread. You could have started a separate topic for that, although you do have internet access, so if price is your only consideration when buying, then click away.

[edit]: Ha, just saw the post above. Ok, I may have been kidding about SRAM, but 1x... ugh! Just get out. Get out now! Lol There are other halfway houses that will take you in.

[tomatoe]

Get the frame first and foremost. You won't regret it. Ultegra 8000 would be just fine... blasphemy doesn't even enter into it. Well... maybe if it was SRAM.... I KID, I KID! Part is parts... you can always upgrade them if you want later on. But yes... I don't want this thread to turn into a best prices for Shimano thread. You could have started a separate topic for that, although you do have internet access, so if price is your only consideration when buying, then click away.

[edit]: Ha, just saw the post above. Ok, I may have been kidding about SRAM, but 1x... ugh! Just get out. Get out now! Lol There are other halfway houses that will take you in.

Last summer i had Super Record shifters mated to Dura-ace RD
About the 1x10/11, there are no climbs around here. Maybe 24meters of elevation change after 75km ride

edit: with SPD pedals! how about that

[Calnago]

Last summer i had Super Record shifters mated to Dura-ace RD
About the 1x10/11, there are no climbs around here. Maybe 24meters of elevation change after 75km ride

edit: with SPD pedals! how about that

Some guy once brought me a DeRosa frame with Campy levers and a Shimano rear derailleur to put on. I really did say... "uh... I don't even want my name to come up if someone asks you who did that", and sent him on his way. I will spend hours on getting a group to work perfectly, if I know all the parts are compatible, but I've learned to not spend 5 minutes extra on trying to get something to work "perfectly" if incompatible parts are being thrown together. Working, and working perfectly, can be two very different experiences.

Use whatever pedals you like, they're hidden by your shoes. I run DuraAce SPD road pedals. Best pedals made as far as I'm concerned. I'm presuming you're talking abou the mtn type spd's. I have those on my touring bike, since I use the same shoes for walking around in. Cyclists do a lot of funny things.

[ManekiNico]

T47 is no better than Threadfit; it's actually trying to do the same thing. So for manufacturers that haven't taken the initiative to do something better, then that might be a way to go (to date there hasn’t been much success getting manufacturers on board).

Slightly OT, but I’ve been reading CyclingTips’ 2018 NAHBS coverage and there are a number of bikes on display built with T47. (Also, lots of Campag groupsets…) For instance, “Independent Fabrications is yet another custom builder that has embraced the T47 threaded bottom bracket standard. Might we see it eventually make its way into the mainstream market?” It would seem small, independent builders get it.

[Devastazione]

Get the frame first and foremost. You won't regret it. Ultegra 8000 would be just fine... blasphemy doesn't even enter into it. Well... maybe if it was SRAM.... I KID, I KID! Part is parts... you can always upgrade them if you want later on. But yes... I don't want this thread to turn into a best prices for Shimano thread. You could have started a separate topic for that, although you do have internet access, so if price is your only consideration when buying, then click away.

[edit]: Ha, just saw the post above. Ok, I may have been kidding about SRAM, but 1x... ugh! Just get out. Get out now! Lol There are other halfway houses that will take you in.

Thanks Calnago. Most likely i’ll go Ultegra 8000. Just bought the wheels an hour ago,Fulcrum Speed 40c.

Looking forward to follow your topic, I still can’t get my head around Colnago weird bb’s standard yet...

[Calnago]

Looking forward to follow your topic, I still can’t get my head around Colnago weird bb’s standard yet...

It's not a "standard"... it's simply Colnago making the best of a bad situation, namely the shift to pressfit bottom brackets versus the old threaded BB's. With Colnago's Threadfit system, they've just added a "protective" layer between the actual pressfit surfaces and the frame. Most pressfit frames, you just press the cups into the carbon shell, which eventually can ruin the carbon shell over time and with wear. With the threaded in Threadfit cups, this is not going to happen. It's a very good system.

@Manekiniko: The T47 BB is ideal for the independent frame builder. It's really pretty much the same as a BSA threaded BB except bigger. I do believe they chose the 47mm width, simply becuase it would allow them to convert a PF30 shell with it's 46mm width into T47, simply by cutting some threads into it. The larger shell allows the framebuilder access to more "real estate" to attach different shaped tubes, etc. It just opens a lot of frame design options for these guys. And like Colnagos Threadfit system, you just get the right adapters for the crank you want to use and you're good to go. So, if I was to contract with a framebuilder to make me a custom steel frame, T47 is what I would choose for sure for my BB. But I think it's wishful thinking to think the big manufacturers would or will adopt it. For one, the manufacturing process of bonding one of the T47 shells into a carbon frame would be far more complex and costly. Secondly, it would add weight, and that is a huge marekting no no. At this point in time, the manufacturers have succeeded in passing off Bottom Bracket issues to third parties for the most part, and the only concern to the big boys is producing a shell that is "reasonably within tolerance" to make those third party solutions work ok. And they do, "more or less". Or maybe we've just gotten used to how to deal with the issues.

Anyway, T47 is good, I hope it didn't come across that I was implying it wasn't. Colnago's Threadfit 82.5 is good. It's funny that the numbers are measuring two different dimensions... whereas in T47, the 47 refers to the diameter of the bore, while Colnago's 82.5 refers to the width of the shell it goes into. Definitely makes things confusing for sure.

I hope it's a bit clearer now.

[Geoff]

@Calnago, not that easy. If I start getting my own bikes as well as other guys bikes showing-up, I'll get divorced.

Anyway, that is a cool ride. I don't have any friends at UAE and haven't gotten a Lampre bike since Fondriest supplied them, so I guess I'm out.

[SuperDomestique]

FWIW the new ceramic speed / colnago BBs are called T45

[Calnago]

Every time I sit down to perhaps write my final thoughts on this frame, there's another minor point to talk about. @SuperDomestique brings it up, so, at risk of boring the hell out of you all with a little bit more about the bottom bracket, here goes... feel free to just skip ahead to something more interesting if you feel so inclined. I won't be offended.

Yes, Ceramic Speed is calling their Colnago BB's... T45. Colnago could have just as easily called their Threadfit 82.5 the same thing, because it is. So, what's the difference between T45, which Colnago has done in their Threadfit 82.5 (another naming convention that needs a bit of 'splainin', which I'll get to after this), and Chris Kings T47. Well, both have the intent of solving some issues inherent in PF30... creak, wear, creak, wear, creak, etc. PF30 has a nominal bore of 46mm. Chris King along with Argonaut Cycles came up with T47. The beauty of T47 to people with problematic PF30 steel bottom brackets, is that they could convert them to T47 simply by tapping out the 46mm bore and adding threads, and voila, instant threaded steel BB. And for carbon frame manufacturers, well, I guess they could bond their carbon around a brand new T47 BB sleeve, but this would have to be done during initial production; conversion of a carbon PF30 shell to T47 after the fact is not an option. This is all great, but to really become a standard, they would have to get all the big manufacturers to follow suit and inlcude a threaded sleeve in the manufacturing process of carbon frames. I could almost hear the laughter from the big boys as they must have thought... "Why the hell would we want to do that... it adds to cost and difficulty of manufacture and adds weight, and we love to tell people we have the lightest frames ever made and we certainly don't want to take away from our bottom line by adding costs. We just spent all this time and effort to get rid of the threaded bonded in alloy bottom bracket". So, even though Chris King made T47 an open standard that anyone can use, I think its main application will be small custom boutique builders. It was a nice idea thinking that the industry would accept it with open arms, but I think that ship has sailed and there's no going back on a whoelsale basis.

So, then we have Colnago, busily designing away their new C60, thinking... ok... seems everyone is going to these pressfit bottom bracket thingies. What should we do? We hate the idea of just pressing cups willy nilly into our finely crafted frames, and having them move about inside and ultimately enlarge the shell to the point of being unusable. We don't build "throwaway" frames. We love the threaded bottom brackets... they've been reliable, easy to service, and easy for users to install their bottom brackets into. But... it doesn't look like the industry shares this view... to them it's all about ease of manufacture and cost savings... plus, by eliminating an alloy threaded shell, they can shave a few grams in the never ending quest in the race to claim "Our frame is lighter than your frame... Na na na Na na".

Hmmm... so, rather than be left on an island in the river of "progress", Colnago came out with their Threadfit BB. As soon as I saw it, I thought, that is brilliant, and although it adds another layer to the whole thing, it was really unavoidable if we accept that PF30 is here to stay a while and want to build a frame that will last despite what happens to the BB. So, still dealing with a standard 46mm bore, and dealing with carbon shells which you can't very well tap threads into, they decided to just add a bonded in alloy sleeve to the carbon shell. Basically, adding threads to the standard bore of 46mm, same as T47 did, except because they had to add an alloy sleeve the threaded diameter ends up 45mm instead of 47mm. Hence T47 when you tap threads into a steel bore of 46mm, or T45 when you add a threaded alloy sleeve to a carbon bore or 46mm.

Ok... so now we have a threaded 45mm alloy sleeve bonded into the carbon shell. What now... That's where the Threadfit cups enter... sorry for reproducing this pic here again, but it's probably easier than refreshing your memory by going back a few posts...

These threadfit cups are in fact the "protective layer" between the horrors of pressfit gone bad, and your very nice frameset. You just screw these cups into the threaded sleeve of the frame, and voila... you have a super nicely machined inner surface that will accept the PF adaptor of your choice, to match the crank you have. In fact, Colnago actually recommends a dry install of the cups into their Threadfit cups. The tolerances are that good. And the biggest benefit from an industry wide standpoint, is it doesn't require the BB manufacturers to be making anything new that they don't already make. So, instead of trying to make the industry adapt to them, a small high end frame manufacturer whose volumes are tiny compared to the big guys, they adapted to the industry direction while at the same time not succumbing to jeapordizing the longevity of their frames. And now, with the options from Wishbone and Ceramic Speed, you could actually dispense with the Threadfit cups altogether and just screw in the appropriate Wishbone or Ceramic Speed option.

Now, imagine the Threadfit cups inner smooth surfaces to be the equivalent of a raw carbon shell, which would be the case with the vast majority of other high end carbon frames being produced today. What happens if these surfaces wear over time, from moving pressfit cups, or just plain wear and tear, or some other sort of damage? Well, if that surface is your raw carbon shell in your expensive carbon frame, you could have a bit of a problem. But in the case of Colnago's Threadfit system... you just unscrew the cups, and replace them with new ones. Good as new, really.

Buying a C-Series Colnago is not just about being old and stuck in your ways and getting all teary eyed about talking about the good old days. Forget the fact that its founder is still at the helm all these years later. Forget about heritage. Forget about palmares. It's also about buying a bicycle frame that is arguably one of, if not the most, solidly built and engineered frames being produced today, by any standards.

Oh, I almost forgot... the nomenclature of Threadfit 82.5... that's simply the width of the shell that the Threadfit cups get screwed into. When you take into account the 2mm flange on each of the Threadfit cups, that gives a total width of 86.5mm, a width you may be more familiar with. Thus, when you order cups for the colnago you just get the BB86 cups, in Campy's case that's 86.5 x 41. Simple. Ok, maybe not but that's what you get.

Whew... ok... next time I hope to finally wrap up this thread, and then we can just open things up for a free for all and discuss which colors we like or don't like.

[billspreston]

Hey Cal, thanks for clearing up some of the confusion around this threadfit 82.5. I've got a C64 on order and wanted to pick your brain a bit on crank and BB selection.

Don't be too upset, but the frame will be built with SRAM eTap. I have a Quarq Dzero "BB30" crank, but it's not really a BB30 crank at all. It is more of a BB386 crank with 30mm spindle diameter and 86.5mm (or wider?) axle length. The crank comes with a variety of spacers to fit to BB30, BB30A, BBRight, BB386, etc. As BB30 style cranks are normally pressed into a 46mm shell and the Colnago cups are 41mm (BB86) there is a bit of an issue. There are BB86 to BB386 style BBs such as Rotor's 4130 or Kogel's BB86-30 that would fit a 30mm spindle into a 41mm shell. My concern is that this may not be an ideal situation from a perfrormance/durability standpoint as the bearings in these BBs must be smaller to fit the 41mm shell instead of the larger 46mm. So perhaps it would be better off getting rid of the 30mm diameter crank and getting SRAM's 24mm GXP version instead and using more "normal" sized bearings. Do you have any opinions on this?

[LorneMalvo]

I would highly recommend to go for the 24mm axle crankset. Although there are a few solutions out there to fit a 30mm crank in there, it won‘t be worth it in the long run concerning the bearings durability.
I would also recommend to dump the whole eTap thing and get your hands on some nice stuff from Italy


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[LorneMalvo]

I would highly recommend to go for the 24mm axle crankset. Although there are a few solutions out there to fit a 30mm crank in there, it won‘t be worth it in the long run concerning the bearings durability.
I would also recommend to dump the whole eTap thing and get your hands on some nice stuff from Italy


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[billspreston]

If I had to replace a $50 BB a bit more frequently it wouldn't be a huge deal. But if we are talking about a significant decrease in either performance or durability (less than 4-5k miles) than I should probably reconsider.

[glepore]

Its going to be somewhere between using those cranks in bb90 ( doable but frowned upon by some) with its 37mm shell and a standard pf30/bb30 setup. I suspect it would be fine if you're lighter and not 5.5 wk/kg or something and not so good if you're 195 or superstrong. I'd shoot a pm or email to Hambini, he's a bearing expert/engineer. The tradeoff of course is 50g or so in weight (bb30 lighter) and stiffness (bb30 stiffer).

[Attermann]

I would highly recommend to go for the 24mm axle crankset. Although there are a few solutions out there to fit a 30mm crank in there, it won‘t be worth it in the long run concerning the bearings durability.
I would also recommend to dump the whole eTap thing and get your hands on some nice stuff from Italy


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I have been running a praxis chain set with the m30 axle on a bb86 bike, the bike has been my foul weather bike, and the bearings spin like new even after about 6000 or more km, this bike has seen a lot of rain and salty roads over those km