Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane meet

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Calnago
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by Calnago

stormur wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:59 pm
Regardless (fabulous) bike I wonder how come that youre 2 cm higher than me, with 3cm more inseam( so height is compensated ) and you're riding 2 sizes bigger bike than I do... :shock:
I can't even begin to answer that question. I've given you all the relevant fit parameters at the start of the thread, I'll leave it to you to reconcile why we might ride different size bikes.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Clean39T wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:13 am
Question regarding the seatmast:
What's your method for getting the saddle tilt you want?
Do you use any carbon paste in the assembly?
How tight do you torque things down?
I'm using a Montrose Pro (so, same rails as your Serano) and am having trouble getting it just right...and keeping it there.
That's actually not a dumb question, as I'm sure anyone who's tried to finely adjust the saddle tilt on a Trek seatmast can attest to.
1) It takes a lot of torque to make it stay put... can't remember exactly what I used, but I do remember starting at around 4Nm, even though the clamp says 16Nm Max. I think I ended up around 11-12Nm before it would stay put. Also, make sure you're using the right clamp (7X10) and not (7x9) which I used for the Specialized saddles.
2) I tried some carbon paste, then I used the Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste... may have even lightly greased it one time... all in attempts to be able to finely adjust the tilt, which is hard with this clamp. Because as you torque it down, things want to shift slightly. I'm sure you know that, and hence your question.
3) It was so frustrating, because I'd be going back and forth in a trial and error process of torquing it down, only to find it off from where I wanted, then undo it and "release" it (since it's now firmly implanted in it's seat) then start the whole process all over again. Half the time I couldn't tell if I was even adjusting the tilt from where it was before.

The solution: Take a Bistro Marker and just make a dot that overlaps both the fixed circular seatmast and the pivoting clamp edge. This gives you a mark to use as a guage to determine how much you've adjusted it from the last go round, and also a point of reference to see if it's moving as you ride it. Don't know how to better expalin it than that. You still have to endure the trial and error of getting it just right, but at least with the white mark on both edges you can tell how you're doing and how much you might need to adjust the next go round in the attempt to get it just right. I'll post an iphone pic below. You can see the white dot that is still on there. It just rubs off easily (not permanent), but obvioulsy I forgot to do that, since it's still there...
Oh, and I use a digital level and a straight flat piece of something across the top of the saddle to actually get the measurement quantified so I can repeat it.
Image
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Clean39T
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:29 am

by Clean39T

Calnago wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:07 pm
Clean39T wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:13 am
Question regarding the seatmast:
What's your method for getting the saddle tilt you want?
Do you use any carbon paste in the assembly?
How tight do you torque things down?
I'm using a Montrose Pro (so, same rails as your Serano) and am having trouble getting it just right...and keeping it there.
That's actually not a dumb question, as I'm sure anyone who's tried to finely adjust the saddle tilt on a Trek seatmast can attest to.
1) It takes a lot of torque to make it stay put... can't remember exactly what I used, but I do remember starting at around 4Nm, even though the clamp says 16Nm Max. I think I ended up around 11-12Nm before it would stay put. Also, make sure you're using the right clamp (7X10) and not (7x9) which I used for the Specialized saddles.
2) I tried some carbon paste, then I used the Morgan Blue Aquaproof Paste... may have even lightly greased it one time... all in attempts to be able to finely adjust the tilt, which is hard with this clamp. Because as you torque it down, things want to shift slightly. I'm sure you know that, and hence your question.
3) It was so frustrating, because I'd be going back and forth in a trial and error process of torquing it down, only to find it off from where I wanted, then undo it and "release" it (since it's now firmly implanted in it's seat) then start the whole process all over again. Half the time I couldn't tell if I was even adjusting the tilt from where it was before.

The solution: Take a Bistro Marker and just make a dot that overlaps both the fixed circular seatmast and the pivoting clamp edge. This gives you a mark to use as a guage to determine how much you've adjusted it from the last go round, and also a point of reference to see if it's moving as you ride it. Don't know how to better expalin it than that. You still have to endure the trial and error of getting it just right, but at least with the white mark on both edges you can tell how you're doing and how much you might need to adjust the next go round in the attempt to get it just right. I'll post an iphone pic below. You can see the white dot that is still on there. It just rubs off easily (not permanent), but obvioulsy I forgot to do that, since it's still there...
Oh, and I use a digital level and a straight flat piece of something across the top of the saddle to actually get the measurement quantified so I can repeat it.
Image
Good idea on the "dot" method. I think I've got it now - carbon paste and torqued to ~15-16nM - I don't think it moved even with some on-the-nose power climbing this morning. I tightened it by hand, then stopped by the shop and they checked it with their torque-wrench - seemed to be right at 15-16nM, so I guess my hand is moderately calibrated. Only sad thing is now that I've got it set I'm not going to want to try any other saddle on there...

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Calnago
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by Calnago

One piece of advice on "checking" the torque of bolts. Just retorque it, by first loosening off the bolt, then with a torque wrench bring it up to the desired torque. This isn't really "checking" as much as redoing from scratch and verifying that you have the right torque at the end. Otherwise, the torque required to "break" loose an already tightened bolt, is going to be higher than the torque that got it there in the first place. And you might just end up with an overtorqued bolt if you continue to "check" it in this manner.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Clean39T
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:29 am

by Clean39T

Calnago wrote:One piece of advice on "checking" the torque of bolts. Just retorque it, by first loosening off the bolt, then with a torque wrench bring it up to the desired torque. This isn't really "checking" as much as redoing from scratch and verifying that you have the right torque at the end. Otherwise, the torque required to "break" loose an already tightened bolt, is going to be higher than the torque that got it there in the first place. And you might just end up with an overtorqued bolt if you continue to "check" it in this manner.
Good point. Recommendation on a quality torque wrench?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

They’re all over the place as far as price range goes. The Effetto Mariposa is really nice but expensive, and covers the range of 2-16Nm. But if you’re a doing the big stuff like threaded bottom brackets and cassettes you’d want another one that works well in the 30-60Nm range too.
Up to you to decide if you really need/want one or not. It does give some piece of mind if you’re not familiar with what various torques “feel” like with various size bolts.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

stormur
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Location: FIN

by stormur

Calnago wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:49 pm
stormur wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:59 pm
Regardless (fabulous) bike I wonder how come that youre 2 cm higher than me, with 3cm more inseam( so height is compensated ) and you're riding 2 sizes bigger bike than I do... :shock:
I can't even begin to answer that question. I've given you all the relevant fit parameters at the start of the thread, I'll leave it to you to reconcile why we might ride different size bikes.
I saw it( better word here would be "analyze" ) , that's why I wonder... Having shorter torso( height vs inseam/ saddle height ) you have bigger numbers: distance from saddle to bar is 5cm longer and drop 3cm bigger... It seems (4me) that your position is quiet "extreme" (?) or your arms extraordinary long .

Or - another option- I have to repeat my bike fit :shock:
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

nobuseri
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:20 am

by nobuseri

Nice write up, as usual. :). Enjoyed being taken to school again and having a front row seat.

Clean build.

BTW, will be hitting you up shortly for some part inquiries.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Thanks @nobuseri... and what parts might you be inquiring about?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Look565w
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:25 am
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

by Look565w

Calnago wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:45 am
Everyone wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:45 pm
Love all of your write ups Calnago, the detail you go into is simply fantastic.
How do you manage to get a full size tub folded up that small and neatly? I can't seem to get it that short and tight enough that it doesn't rub on my legs as I'm riding.
Thanks so much for the kind words, all of you...
As for the magic of miniaturizing a tubular for easy carrying, first, you must go watch the new movie "Downsizing". No, don't... it's horrible.

I have to admit that before 2010, I had never used a tubular, even though guys my age grew up with them. And it was one such guy, who upon noticing a barely folded tubular sticking out in all kinds of directions from my jersey pocket outside a Starbucks one day, came over to teach me the proper way to fold one. He hadn't folded one in a while himself but clearly knew the technique, and got me on the right track. To him (Mike), I am eternally grateful... Let me try to pass on his wisdom with a few pics...

I like to start with a used tubular, they're just more flexible etc. Also, this is the reason I don't use sealant as a preventative measure and only at the time of puncture. If a tire has sealant in it, there's no way you can fold it up and expect it to be useable when you unfold it. So, hopefully I get enough wear from a tire, with no punctures, that I can remove it before it's completley shot and use it as a spare. Take it off, give it fresh coat of glue on the base tape, let it dry, then proceed to fold it up for use as a spare...

First start like this, valve open so that air can escape as you fold it and start at the opposite end of the valve so as you fold it up, air can escape and you can get it as small as possible... keep in mind that I'm just folding this one up for demo purposes. The glue you see is residue from removing it from the rim it was on... I will put a fresh coat of glue on and let it dry before actually packing it away for a ride spare...Image


Then twist and fold the first turn so that you have basic two "lines of traffic"...
Image


Keep folding until you've got one fold left by the valve...
Image

Make sure you've either already added the appropriate valve extender (if you need one) for the wheels you're riding with, or at least take one with you in your bag of whatever tricks you ride with.
Image

Then the final fold... before you wrap it up tight with a round of blue painters tape, which holds well and is super easy to get off when you need it. I once made the mistake of using grey allweather duct tape... don't do that...
Image


And there ya go... I like to label them now, with the tire that it is and the date it was all folded up...
That's an iPhone 6 by the way...
Image


Then tuck it all in the little dry bag and fold it shut then strap it to the underside of your saddle. The little dry bag (I've got three), I obtained at a bike shop that was selling these saddle bags which consisted of these dry bags encased in this hard wrap around piece of plastic that would awkwardly strap to your saddle rails. It was big and bulky, but the dry bag inside was perfect for what I wanted so I bought three, pulled out the dry bags and threw away the rest of the crap. Simpler is better.
Image

[edit]: I found an old pic of what I had to buy in order to get that little dry bag...
Image


And there you have it...
Image

While strapping an exposed tubular with an old leather Christophe or Campagnolo toestrap might seem cool, keeping your preglued tubular clean and dry is far more important, and the nylon toe clip strap works very well and doesn't rot in foul weather, although it probably takes a lot to rot a Campagnolo toestrap. Truth is, I just don't have a Campagnolo toestrap or I'd probably use it. But I love the dry bag... I've used saran wrap in the past but that looked really bad like I was carrying around a half eaten sandwich, saving it for later.
I'm answering my own question regarding the dry bag which I asked Calnago about.

I was searching for some touring bags & came across this, which looks very much like your one, Calnago!

https://www.arkel-od.com/en/seat-bag.html

Cheers

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Calnago
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by Calnago

^ Yup, that's the bag. They were probably about $20 when I got them, and I think the bike shop had stocked them and they didn't sell, so they were just clearing them out. I tried them with the kind of hard plastic outer shell, but in the end just threw the shell away and kept the perfectly sized little dry bags for spare tubulars. With the plastic shell they were quite bulky, and could interfere with your legs a bit. Ha... I didn't know these things were still made.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

aharbutt
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Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:12 pm

by aharbutt

This is a great thread, and thank you for posting.

I was always impressed with your honesty in writing about your Emonda SL, saying it could compete with your bikes worth multiples more.

Since your praise of the Emonda was so high, and this Koppenberg seems to be nearly perfect, and they effectively share the same geometry, could you eleaborate more on the differences between the two. I ask because you mentioned that the decoupler was not as impactful as the Giant Defy seatpostm, so I assume it's not comfort alone. Or is it mainly down to the frame being over built?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

The frame is “overbuilt” compared to an Emonda SLR for sure. It’s simply more solid. It’s basically on par weightwise with my Colnago’s. They’re not light by superlight standards, but then neither am I. I think the extra material just provides a nicer ride overall. There’s two aspects to that. 1) you want it stiff and strong enough so that it handles well and doesn’t feel like a noodle under hard braking or sketchy turns, and 2) there’s some damping, or compliance that comes with more material as well. It’s a balance. But I’ve found that the really light stiff bikes are fun for getting up a long climb. Speeds are slow, so handling in sketchy situations isn’t as big as a concern and getting beat up from the stiffness isn’t a big concern. And every ounce counts when your going up. So stiffer and lighter the better. But then you have to come down. That’s when I really appreciate the solidness of bikes like the Koppenberg or the Colnago. As for the isospeed, if I didn’t know it was there, I would be hard pressed to say it’s doing much, yet I know it is. Maybe it’s just the tuning of the Koppenberg specifically, but it takes quite a lot to flex it, and I like that. I was a bit concerned it might feel too mushy. But that’s not the case. I know it’s working however, because to test just that I asked a friend to put his finger between the tire and the rear brake bridge while I bounced on it. Ha! After he screamed I said “Don’t blame me, didn’t your mom ever tell you not to touch a hot stove?... well, same thing here dumbass”. Anyway, it works. Then there’s just the handling up front that’s a bit quicker. It’s still very stable but it’s a bit quicker to react than the Colnago. Not twitchy. Just quicker. If I was racing crits, I think the Koppenberg would be fantastic.
So, they both ride and handle awesomely well. Aside from that, there’s the look. The Colnago is a very traditional timeless design, and I love that. The Koppenberg however, is just really badass looking I think and in my size it sets up really nice. I think it’s the best looking road bike Trek has ever made, past or present. I sent a pic to a friend one day while I was stopped and he hadn’t yet seen the bike and he replied with “Since when did you start riding such an agressive position?” Funny thing is, it’s set up the same as my C59 or other bikes. At least within a couple millimeters here and there. It’s just a helluva lot of fun to ride and looks cool. Love it.
Last edited by Calnago on Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

JackDaniels
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:15 am

by JackDaniels

I have a little older version of this. I never thought I'd be a Trek guy, but it's an awesome bike. I ended up putting on dura-ace.

Image

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Calnago
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by Calnago

The Koppenberg was only available for the two years. That’s the Old Classics version you must have. Completely different geometry. Longer wheelbase, lower BB, the Paris Roubaix version. Same geo as the new “Pro Endurance” geometry that you can special order with a Project One Domane now. Koppenberg is H1 geo, same as the Emonda. Somewhere in my thread I’ve linked to an article with the two versions side by side. Funny, because neither is really that close to the standard Domane they sell to the public. Are you in the process of building it back up or stripping it down?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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