Colnago C60 SR Build - 7KGs - New Enve and Tubular Goodness

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@xcnick: I tried to find where I said that and sheesh, that was a long thread. I found the main post where I talked about tire clearance but was mostly referring to tubulars at 25mm. I know the 25’s in the clincher were too tight in my C59 and EPQ. At least for my liking. But I could certainly have been talking about clearances somewhere else as well.
Calnago wrote:
Mr.Gib wrote:...A question for you Cal, you show rear tire clearance. Can we also see front tire clearance? (Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread). That rear clearance does look good but while a 27 mm may fit theoretically, I don't think it could be used in practice based on the gap I am seeing. I think you'd have all kinds of crap scraping the frame as soon as you were on anything but a clean road. And for the clincher crowd I think the limit would be 25 mm tires, 23 mm for some brands, on any rims with a 17 mm or wider internal width.
Ah, the clearance issue... Here's a pic of the front with a 25mm Veloflex Arrenberg tubular mounted on a Campagnolo Bora wheel (2015, and yes it makes a difference over the pre 2014 Boras)...

Image

My rule for clearance with no "chatter" from road debris is 2mm of clearance measured with a 2mm Allen wrench waved lengthwise like a wand over the tire and between the fork or the rear brake bridge. I've really tested this out as with my C59 and my EPQ which share the same fork, a 25mm Arrenberg, for example, mounted on the older Boras would barely have enough clearance, and road debris (not the tire itself), would occasionally get thrown through the fork crown and rear stays causing a lot of annoying "chatter". I fully expect that the underside of a fork crown cannot be expected to stay pristine forever, but the chatter really annoyed me. With the 2015 Boras, the more relaxed radius of the rim bed designed around 25mm tires actually allows the same tire to sit a little lower, only 1mm mind you, but that's all the difference I needed to ride chatter free. I am very happy about this. While the C60 has marginally more clearance that the C59 I'll use my C59 fork to show some clearance gaps without any brakes installed, which conceivable could have an effect as well, depending on the caliper being used...

Frist up... Pre 2015 Bora with a Veloflex 24mm Roubaix tubular (now discontinued)... no clearance issues whatsoever...
Image



Compared to a 25mm Veloflex Arrenberg tubular on a new Bora rim... 2-2.5mm of clearance, no issues still, but this is the minimum clearance I have tested that runs "chatter free"...
Image


How do I measure... with Allan wrenches waved like a wand. A 2mm wrench can be waved freely around the entire profile of the tire between the tire and the fork crown with the wrench sticking through the entire way front to back...
Image


And now the same wheel/tire but using a 2.5mm Allen wrench... it does not move "freely"... it will bind slightly between the tire and fork crown... hence clearance of 2-2.5mm...
Image


And here is the exact same tire (Veloflex Arrenberg 25mm tubular) mounted on a pre 2015 Bora rim. It sits higher simply because of the narrower rim bed radius which kind of wants to push up the tubular a little bit due to the slight mismatch in radial profile... as a result there is only 1-1.5mm of clearance as measured the same way as I just showed previously. Looking back at these pics it may be hard to see the difference but there is. The exact same camera angle can be hard to duplicate. But the differences were there, and measured. What a difference a millimeter can make...
Image

So there you have it, clearances for a C59 fork (the latest runs of C59's shared the early C60 fork design and had more clearance than this one, which is part of one of the first C59's). But they never altered the rear stays on those runs.

The C60 has more clearance on both ends of the bike than the C59's, but it's still not huge by some standards. It's a road bike, pure and simple. I'm a 200+ pounder and would not ride bigger than 24-25mm tires on these bikes. I really do think the sweet spot is pretty much exactly like the new Boras provide, slightly wider rim width of 24.2mm with a rim bed radius designed around a 25mm tubular. The rim bed "radius" is obviously irrelevant for clincher tires, which have their own set of sizing "issues" and are very dependent on the rim width being used, unlike tubulars.
I know that 25mmConti 4000sii’s on a 17mm Shamal Ultra rim were a no go in the C59, and probably at some point tried them in the C60, but unless I have 2mm clearance with my “wand test”, I consider it too tight.
I know the 27mm Vlanderens are too tight for the C60 and those are tubulars, so true to size (I measured them). So I’m assuming that a 27mm clincher in a 17c rim is going to be too big for a C60.
Are you running 25mm Conti4000’s in your C60 without issue... chatter etc. as debris goes through?... excessively scratched up underside of the fork crown etc? And since the only time I’d run the 27mm Vlanderens would be on much worse roads than I generally ride, I’d really want more clearance than the 2mm I think is fine in good roads if that makes sense.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


xcnick
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

Calnago wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:02 pm
@xcnick: I tried to find where I said that and sheesh, that was a long thread. I found the main post where I talked about tire clearance but was mostly referring to tubulars at 25mm. I know the 25’s in the clincher were too tight in my C59 and EPQ. At least for my liking. But I could certainly have been talking about clearances somewhere else as well.
Its currently on your second to last page you said
"Hi @welchy... this if for your C60 right? Yes, I have some Vlanderens on some current (AC3) Boras and will say No, there’s simply not the clearance you need to run these in that frame. You say you ran Contis and they were ok, which I’m a little surprised at. Because if they were 25mm 4000sii clinchers on any kind of even slightly wide rim, then the clearance with those is simply too tight for this frame as well in my opinion."

I don't ride my C60 in the winter but on a ride where you are riding over sticky mud that's been dragged out of farmers fields it cn build up over the length of a ride and start catching under the fork. But that's cos it's sticky! Otherwise I havent had a problem over a few thousand miles on 25mm GP4000s :)
Last edited by xcnick on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

xcnick
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

xcnick wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:13 am
Calnago wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:02 pm
@xcnick: I tried to find where I said that and sheesh, that was a long thread. I found the main post where I talked about tire clearance but was mostly referring to tubulars at 25mm. I know the 25’s in the clincher were too tight in my C59 and EPQ. At least for my liking. But I could certainly have been talking about clearances somewhere else as well.
Its currently on your second to last page you said
"Hi @welchy... this if for your C60 right? Yes, I have some Vlanderens on some current (AC3) Boras and will say No, there’s simply not the clearance you need to run these in that frame. You say you ran Contis and they were ok, which I’m a little surprised at. Because if they were 25mm 4000sii clinchers on any kind of even slightly wide rim, then the clearance with those is simply too tight for this frame as well in my opinion."

I don't ride my C60 in the winter but on a ride where you are riding over sticky mud that's been dragged out of farmers fields it cn build up over the length of a ride and start catching under the fork. But that's cos it's sticky! Otherwise I havent had a problem over a few thousand miles on 25mm GP4000s :)

xcnick
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

.

xcnick
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

Argh triple post error!

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@xcnick: Thanks for tracking that down. Yeah, you're absolutely correct... I misspoke when I said I just don't think a 25mm Conti 4000sii clincher on any kind of wider rim would be a good fit for the C60. The 25mm should be fine in the C60, as on the wider rim of 17c it balloons out to about 27mm, so pretty much the same as a 27mm Vlanderen tubular (which I show below). My basic test is whether I can pass a 2mm allan key like a wand from one side of the tire, over the top between the tire and rear brake bride and fork crown without it binding. Anything less is just too tight for my liking. Since the Conti 4000 on a Shamal Ultra (17c internal) measures about 27mm, same as my Vlanderen tubular, I just think an even bigger tire would be getting too tight. Certainly I don't think you could get a 28mm Conti 4000sii in there. There's "does it spin" clearance, and then there's "useable clearance", or the clearance necessary to be practical for your daily use, considering crud on the road, flex of the frame, etc.
Heres' a pic I dug up of a 27mm Vlanderen tubular in the rear of my C60, I think the fork has a bit less clearance... would you say your 25mm Conti 4000's on your Quattro rims have about the same clearance?... when I look at this picture it looks like it's got plenty of clearance, but I know I in real life I find that a bit too tight as well. Maybe it's up at the front that it's tighter. Regardless, I preferred 25's over the 27's and I've since taken off the Vlanderen's in favor of 25's.
Image
Since I know that a 25mm Conti 4000 balloons to about 27mm on a Shamal Ultra (yikes, now that I think of it, when i wrote that previous post I was thinking I tested it on a normal width Campy Neutron rim, and I did, but it's on the 17c rim where the noiminal width 25mm tire gets to 27mm in actuality), so it should be about the same fit as what I show in that pic. Ok, so a 25mm Conti 4000 should be fine, even on the slightly wider 17c internal width rim. Thanks for correcting me. But a 28mm Conti 4000 clincher... I don't think so. Will be interesting to see if Welchy can fit the 27mm Paves in his frame. If tubular, then should be very similar to the pic above. If clinchers, on the 17c rim, I'm gonna guess it'll be reaaal tight, but who knows... nothing fits as big as a Conti 4000sii, so it may make it, barely. Curious to see it now.

[edit]: So this morning that pic I posted above had me curious as it looks like the clearance is doable, yet I was so certain that I didn't like to run these tires in this frame due to the clearance issue, and I simply prefer 25's. So I double checked and just dry mounted the same Vlanderens on some Bora Ultra 50's and threw them in the frame to double check. Even took the rear brake off for a better look...
Image

Did the same thing with the front, and actually had a hard time getting a camera angle perfect enough that you could see any gap at all...
Image
So yeah, I knew there was a good reason I wouldn't recommend 27mm Vlanderens in this frame... I can't even pass a 1.5mm Allan key over either of those tires through the gap without binding, let alone my minimum threshold amount of 2mm.

So now I think I'm back to where I started.... if a 25mm Conti 4000sii gets to 27mm on a rim, then I'm not sure it would be much different than what I show above... and that's just not enough practical clearance for me. The verniers measure those tires at 27mm wide, and you can see where the height gets them in this frame. I think with the right camera angle, and the pics being magnified on the screen, the clearance may look to be a little more than it really is. It really isn't enough.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

welchy
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:04 pm

by welchy

Many thanks again guys, yes in the vlanderens I would argue as you’ve put it they are too tight. I seem to have more clearance than you on my frameset though, but will not fit the pave’s if they are that tight..

All I can do is trial fit without riding on my C17 Zondas and try, very reluctant to do roubaix on a narrower tyre/c60 altogether but it’s all I’ve got!

xcnick
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

Here Calnago... using your Allen key method I reckon 3.5mm at the top and 4.5mm on the sides. Please excuse the dirt-needs cleaning, again!

Image

Welchy, I’ve done Roubaix on 25mm Pave’s (green ones which look cooler than black) on open pros and they were fine. I’ve also done it with the same tyres on wider Hunt rims and I couldn’t tell any difference. I would probably take my C60 if I did it again! It’s a brilliant even, have fun.


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KarlC
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:08 am
Location: San Diego Ca USA

by KarlC

Anyone tried using fork dropout spacers to gain more clearance ?

welchy
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:04 pm

by welchy

Had a wee search for some and couldn’t find anything, could be an idea but I guess risky!

KarlC
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:08 am
Location: San Diego Ca USA

by KarlC

welchy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:02 pm
Had a wee search for some and couldn’t find anything, could be an idea but I guess risky!
Something like these

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/produc ... HUQAvD_BwE


.

welchy
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:04 pm

by welchy

Just an update, thought I’d post my conti GP 4 Seasons in 25C pumped to 120psi on
C17 2018 Campag Zonda Rim. Verniers are showing the tyres at 27.1C as is, the front looks like it has plenty of room, rear tighter. Just to note I’ve been running these tyres in this size for a good few thousand KMs :)

Hopeful Vittoria Pave will be similar.
89ECF131-E09A-4E25-9D05-4BC2D140660F.jpeg
5220007E-7A4E-4366-8801-E8BD150D569B.jpeg
29E7C67B-161B-47C4-A6AF-A361868E3B14.jpeg

welchy
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:04 pm

by welchy

KarlC wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:50 pm
welchy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:02 pm
Had a wee search for some and couldn’t find anything, could be an idea but I guess risky!
Something like these

https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/produc ... HUQAvD_BwE


.
Have you had any experience with these Cal? I'd probably give these a miss to be honest as 5mm spacing on the front forks seems pretty large, you'd really only need 1-2mm

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Calnago
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by Calnago

~5mm extra is for sure large, and enough to change the effective headtube angle by a quarter to a half a degree at the outside, about the change Colnago might make between frame sizes. Would you notice?... depends on how sensitive you are to it. But it's there, nonetheless. I don't like them for that reason alone.
I know Eurperg (another member on WW), had fashioned his own out of plastic or from some piece of Ikea furniture or something, but I don't think his were close to being 5mm in thickeness. Thats large, not even sure how much dropout space there'd be left after that.
But if that was your only option, and you had a one time event that you really wanted the bigger tires for, then sure, why not. Just be sure to adjust your brakes to account for the new position of the brake tracks. And don't lose the little buggers in the grass if you have to remove a wheel for whatever reason and have those spacers fall out somewhere never to be seen again. If you also used them in the rear, a tweak of the rear derailleur adjustment may be required.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

by Weenie


welchy
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:04 pm

by welchy

I very much doubt I would go for any option such as this, I would still like to keep the bike and frameset as is - the choice of 27C tyres is purely for Roubaix and the bike will not be used with the tyres beyond this - unless there really is a solid amount of clearance for no worries for which I am doubtful.

The next move for me is bye bye fizik seatpost, its weighing at 236g which I could easily get down to mid 100s with a Darimo or such like. On a £ per G basis this would be a good bet at the moment.

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