2023 Epic Evo - 9.26kg with pedals

Discuss light weight issues concerning mountain bikes & parts.

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Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

Yoln wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:40 pm
Thanks! Cable routing for rear derailleur, Brake hoses, or lockout hoses? Or all ?:) asking because I'm debating between xx1 mechanical, vs axs, vs xtr. Obviously if mech routing is a pain, I might lean towards electronic, even though I'm generally a mech guy
When I build up my Epic (not Evo) 2021, it's 'fine'.
All cables go in the same port at the left side of head tube. And it is unguided in the down tube.
It's easier to route from the back end of the bike toward the front with fork and headset removed.
Just feed the cable housing or hose in until it is visible from the headtube, then guide it into the cable slot.

I think it'd be a nightmare to route the other way around (front to back), or with fork and headset still in place.

Since mine is Epic (with Brain), I don't have remote lockout for rear shock. So there are 3 cables (RD, rear brake, dropper post).
If you have 4 cables then simply don't use the rubber cover for cable hole. They design it that way. Rubber cover support up to 3 cables. Remove rubber for 4th one.
Last edited by Hexsense on Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


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Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

Yoln wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:40 pm
asking because I'm debating between xx1 mechanical, vs axs, vs xtr. Obviously if mech routing is a pain, I might lean towards electronic, even though I'm generally a mech guy
I have X01 and XT 12 speed group. I haven't used AXS but some of my friend use it.

Recommendation: Do you have weak thumb?
If yes:
First choice is AXS.
Second choice is Shimano SLX shifter. SLX lost some features from XT and XTR but it require way less force to trigger the shift.
Third choice would be gripshift from Sram. I prefer trigger shifter over gripshift though.

If no:
Both Sram mech and Shimano (XT, XTR) will work.
Sram X01 and XX1 mech require less lever effort to shift than Shimano. And IMO, better ergonomic while riding in a normal trail position (grip at the bar end).
But Shimano can be shifted to a harder gear using index finger as well. This is handy for road/smooth section riding where you grip the bar narrow. It's easier to reach just the index finger over the bar to shift than to move the entire hand down so that the thumb can reach up shift lever.

XTR cassette won't last long. Worse than Dura-ace cassette, you have a lot of dust and dirt in the trail to wear the titanium and aluminum cogs down. Sram X01 and XX1 cassette have 11 cogs made of hardened steel, only one aluminum. It last comically longer than any Shimano cassette. On MTBR forum, it's not a rare sight to see 4 year old X01 cassette that still function like new after wearing out a lot of chain. X01 and XX1 cassette are pretty much the same thing just in different color. While X01 is cheaper, I think XX1 cassette looks so much more fancy.

If you go with Sram cassette, try to get 10-50 rather than 10-52.
The two are identical in 11 gears but only differ on the last cog.
On 10-50 it is 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 36, 42, 50.
On 10-52 it is 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 36, 42, 52.
That 42 to 52 jump on the 10-52 is so big that I don't like it. Shimano cassette (either 10-45 or 10-51) have better progression.

js
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:57 pm
Location: Canada

by js

The cable routing at the front of the bike is outright awful.

I'm running three cables there for dropper, RD & brake (okay, that one's a hose). You'd run four if you added a remote lockout for the shock, which as mentioned above means you don't use the gromit at all, but my housing is already getting beat up from the amount of movement WITH the gromit in place. I can't imagine how bad it would be without.

The gromit also displaces and works it's way out the frame, and I've nearly lost it twice while riding, because I don't always think to check it every half hour.

This video does a good job of showing where the problem is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtMiLICO2HM

Note that he's using the two-hose plug, but it doesn't seem to matter, as it's the same experience. Plenty of similar stories in the comments too. I've glued mine in with some hot-glue that can be peeled back when needed, but even then it's a bandaid. This set-up is an embarassment on an otherwise outstanding bike.

Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

I simply don't use rubber grommet. I just black tape all the cables together big enough that it jam in the hole, stopping any abrasion movement.
Not good, but fine.
js wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:20 pm
This video does a good job of showing where the problem is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtMiLICO2HM
It seems to be extra bad with raw finish frame. I saw thicker color coating Epic to hold the rubber grommet better.
Last edited by Hexsense on Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zscs
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:05 pm
Location: Hungary

by zscs

Hexsense wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:21 am
zscs wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:17 pm

New bikes comes with wide tires nowadays. I ordered the new 2022 Canyon Lux CFR LTD and Canyon will send it with 2.35 3C TR EXO Maxxis Ikons, which are on the side of heaviest XC tires (~750g or even more). So changing them back to e.g. Race Kings will save me almost 300 grams immediately. Canyon Exceed hardtails also equipped with 2.35 wide Maxxis tires and other brands use similar approach nowadays, to be honest I don't really understand why. (In overall, the inner rim width increase in the industry, maybe?)
Wide tire trend is the result of pro testing all the combos and found interesting results.
Currently, the consensus is:
1) in wet mud, keep using 2.2 tire with knobs like we used to do. Wider tire doesn't help in mud.

2) but in dry, rather than use low knob 2.2 at moderate pressure, the semi-slick 2.4 is faster and provide similar grip level.
Like, Aspen 2.4 at 16psi is faster than Rekon Race 2.2 at 20psi and even grip better (in dry). But then, with wide thin casing tire at low pressure, it now require wider rim to give tire the stability it needs to not fold over or burp air when cornering hard. There you go, rim gets wide too.
Nino Schurter started this strategy and it is widely adopted now.
https://youtu.be/43ruZxBIi2w

However, XC bike that come stock from bike shop with 2.4 tires with big knobs are really overkill for XC race. The whole point is to go up in tire size and go down in knob size. Though, I think it's not a bad idea to spec too much grip by default. Racers who can handle faster, lighter tires will switch the tire anyway. But beginner are more likely to use stock tire to build up their skills.
Sounds absolutely logical and I fully agree with you. Good to read to mention the bigger knobs, good point! The question mark in my mind comes from that, most of the riders ride bikes in ideal conditions - most of the time, races included. 2.4 Aspens definitely work perfectly in good conditions (assumption, never tried in 2.4) but Ikons... I don't get it. Okay, apart from my concerns about purpose and evidence vs. costs. Industry is basically about profit, logical reasons look like 2nd most of the time. (-:

Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Thank you, I'll go with mechanical SRAM (for cassette wear reasons)

Here's a tentative list of parts, let me know your thoughts please!

Image
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

1)
Shifter: Get X01.
The down shift paddle is adjustable and on ball bearing on X01. The location I can tweak X01 paddle is so much nicer than default position of GX shifter.

2)
Do you really need that long dropper post? I'd look more toward Fox Transfer SL 100mm (347g) or 75mm (342g).
In fact, I'm using Fox Transfer SL 75mm travel (30.9mm diameter, of course) on my Epic.
The Performance Elite level of Fox Transfer SL can be found at a good price. It just miss the gold Kashima anodize of the Factory level.

3) on my mtb, I mount computer on headset spacer on top of the stem. It is safer for the computer to be on top of the stem rather than in front of it when I run the bike into a tree or flip over front wheel...
Example of such mount: https://k-edge.com/shop/computer-mounts ... tem-mount/

4) Front tire, you'd want Karma 2, not the original Karma.
To be clear, it's "Kenda Karma 2 TR 2.2". Emphasize on Karma 2, and TR version (not SCT which is tougher and heavier). Though I found SCT to mount straight more easily. I found many TR casing to wobble more than the heavier SCT.

5) I don't think sealant weight that much. It's lighter than water, and we only need 80ml per tire (atleast on according to Orange Seal).

6) Why more spokes on front wheel?

7) You know your body better than me if 34T is really needed. What speed can you get on 34x10, 34x12 etc. I find 32T fast enough for my lack of fitness.

8 ) Seat tube position water bottle cage of Epic (and Evo) should be a side mount version. There are limited space under the rear shock. Any brand you want, but keep the seat tube position bottle cage side mounted.

Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Hexsense wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:45 pm
1)
Shifter: Get X01.
The down shift paddle is adjustable and on ball bearing on X01. The location I can tweak X01 paddle is so much nicer than default position of GX shifter.

2)
Do you really need that long dropper post? I'd look more toward Fox Transfer SL 100mm (347g) or 75mm (342g).
In fact, I'm using Fox Transfer SL 75mm travel (30.9mm diameter, of course) on my Epic.
The Performance Elite level of Fox Transfer SL can be found at a good price. It just miss the gold Kashima anodize of the Factory level.

3) on my mtb, I mount computer on headset spacer on top of the stem. It is safer for the computer to be on top of the stem rather than in front of it when I run the bike into a tree or flip over front wheel...
Example of such mount: https://k-edge.com/shop/computer-mounts ... tem-mount/

4) Front tire, you'd want Karma 2, not the original Karma.
To be clear, it's "Kenda Karma 2 TR 2.2". Emphasize on Karma 2, and TR version (not SCT which is tougher and heavier). Though I found SCT to mount straight more easily. I found many TR casing to wobble more than the heavier SCT.

5) I don't think sealant weight that much. It's lighter than water, and we only need 80ml per tire (atleast on according to Orange Seal).

6) Why more spokes on front wheel?

7) You know your body better than me if 34T is really needed. What speed can you get on 34x10, 34x12 etc. I find 32T fast enough for my lack of fitness.

8 ) Seat tube position water bottle cage of Epic (and Evo) should be a side mount version. There are limited space under the rear shock. Any brand you want, but keep the seat tube position bottle cage side mounted.
All very good points, thanks

- on the tires, that's a typo, Kenda Karma 2 it is

- on the spoke count, typo as well, 26mm and 28 spokes for the rear ; 28mm internal and 24 spokes for the front

- point taken on the seatpost, I'll reconsider it.

- x01 shifter it is

- I debated 34t vs 32t, but in the end it's meant to be raced too, and 34 will make more sense for that usage. I'll see if I'm getting too constrained during my exploring rides by the 34t, might change it down the road

Thanks again for all your great comments, you've been super helpful!!!
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

snaxez
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:14 pm
Location: Estonia

by snaxez

For dropper Fox SL is ligher, but I have read so much horror stories about the fox post. Some guys have 2, so they can send one for service and still ride a bike. BikeYoke is a bit more heavy, but seems to be bullet proof and easy to service at home.

BikeYoke
REVIVE 2.0 125mm (30,9mm+Ti bolt) 445g
DIVINE 125mm (30,9mm+Ti bolt) 435g
DIVINE SL 125mm (30,9mm) 430g
DIVINE SL 100mm (30,9mm) 415g

Fox Transfer SL Factory
30.9 x 75mm, 80mm min insertion, 225mm max insertion, 355mm extended length, Starting Weight: 342g
30.9 x 100mm, 80mm min insertion, 225mm max insertion, 380mm extended length, Starting Weight: 347g

Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Any thoughts on 9point8 droppers?
597C2960-24F6-45D5-ADBC-58B8FB403DE9.jpeg

They are pretty light, but much more expensive than KS Lev...
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

I don't see much to to wrong with Fox Transfer SL.
Unlike the regular Fox Transfer, the Transfer SL use a completely different mechanism and is so simple.
There isn't any hydraulic or pneumatic system on SL.
It's one mechanical spring and two holes (one at the top, one at the bottom) for the pin to lock the post into position. Pin is pulled out of the lock only when you push the dropper lever. It can't get any simpler than that. Since the system isn't delicate, you don't even need to clean the main seal as it doesn't matter if dirt get inside the mechanical spring chamber.

The only potential issue I see is if the thin wall outer tube is overclamped, then it may pinch the inner tube and it'd struggle to extend. But that apply to any light dropper post with thin wall.
Other than that, there is no hydraulic and pneumatic system to go wrong in the first place.

I also have Bike Yoke Divine SL. (Still own the post but the bike that it is used on was sold). It need saddle to be removed to pump the seatpost. It operate by air (300psi) which the air valve is under the saddle. And since it use air spring, the seals are tighter and require more frequent regrease on the seals. Symptom I got when my Divine SL's seal is dry is: I push the dropper lever but the post don't extend. Despite its 300psi pressure, it somehow can't overcome the initial stiction until I wiggle it a bit.

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rapsac
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:35 am

by rapsac

Have used a Fox Transfer SL (and Divine SL) much prefer the Yep Podio. Even a bit lighter but - more importantly - much more solid feeling and very nice action. Best used with the Yep lever.

Hexsense
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

^
I'd assume so, they have to perform to justify that price over my Fox Transfer SL which I paid $279.95.

User avatar
rapsac
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:35 am

by rapsac

Yes, for me not comparable at all. My Transfer SL had to be repaired after too much play and accompanying noises. It remains a bit wobbly… And the price difference - although still significant - is way less in Europe.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

I think there's some confusion between pre-2022 and post-2022 transfer SL seatpost, as explained above.

In any case, I got a great deal on a 9point8 Fall R at 340gr for 100mm of travel. So went with that
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

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