Want: adapt the Naild R3act-2Play philosophy to XC race rear and front suspension

Discuss light weight issues concerning mountain bikes & parts.

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milesthedog
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by milesthedog

So, the Polygon Square One and its Naild R3act-2Play suspension has me thinking about a 120 XC race rig. Since the Polygon is near DH travel, but is said to ride like a trail bike, it reignites my desire for a 120mm XC race bike using that Naild R3act-2Play philosophy of using a shock with few damping and rebound adjustable settings - so a no thank you to the beautifully light 120mm Scott Spark which depends heavily upon those settings and ultimately cuts into the ascent/decent gobbling ability of 120mm trail bikes while also not able to keep pace with an 80-100mm pure race oriented rig.

I'm also interested in taking that philosophy to mtb front suspension. I'm just let down by 120mm forks and 100mm XC forks. The 120 forks are no good through fast turns compared to 100mm race-worthy forks, and 100mm forks feel I'm riding on an air canister. Can the Naild R3act-2Play philosophy be adapted to a linkage front fork, using an eccentric pivot as found on the dw equipped Ripley to provide a 120mm fork that can keep up with 100mm forks in terms of better resistance to brake dive pedal feedback?
Last edited by milesthedog on Sun May 21, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


TheRookie
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by TheRookie

That reads like a right load of tosh!

What the heck is dynamic suspension design?

Your comments on forks is unfortunately gibberish, perhaps you can try again?
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wingguy
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by wingguy

milesthedog wrote:Sure, that's the current state of things.... but that's not true: a DW rear end, and the claimed ride of the Polygon Square, are testament that things can be better.

Why does the claimed ride of the new Polygon have you wanting a DW rear end? The new suspension system on the Polygon bears no similarity to anything Dave Weagle has designed.

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milesthedog
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by milesthedog

It really does, actually. Sure Polygon is using a super raised rear stay and they are using a sliding shaft for rear-end stability (but which has no suspension but, according to the Pinkbike article does have axle path qualities), but the actual design is very, very similar to a DW rear end, looking at the photos close up.

and I don't believe I said I want a dw rear end as much as a dw inspired linkage front fork to be paired with a dw-link rear end.... or, sure, a 120mm NAILD R3ACT-2Play rear end if that incredibly forward pivot makes it ride better than a dw-link design.

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milesthedog
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by milesthedog

TheRookie wrote:
What the heck is dynamic suspension design?



DW, Maestro, Split Pivot, VPP, Delta, Switch Infinity.... are typically referred to as "dynamic" due to their linkage designs yielding a more optimal wheel path vs single pivot and first-gen 4-bar linkage systems.

As for the fork, linkage fork designs are typically faulted for what appears to be a less than ideal axel path. Could Dave Weagle design a fork that keeps the axel path 'more ideal' (adjustable for different HT angles)?

I look at something like the Turner Czar which is now selling with a Fox 34 120mm fork. That rear end is very much race-worthy as is the Flux rear end, but I'd never race XC on a Fox 34 or equivalent fork. It would be nice to have a front linkage fork that made 120mm race-worthy. Pinkbike had a video on linkage forks and the faults cited seem like they could be overcome with a 'dynamic' linkage front fork.

tonytourist
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by tonytourist

The only light weight "race worthy" 120mm XC fork is the DT Swiss OPM ODL Race. I run one on my Yeti ASR and think it is awesome, even though I am currently running a bit too much pressure in it and need to tweak the fork settings further. I don't know about a linkage fork, and while those German A forks seem cool, I'm not sure how great they actually are. Best of luck with your quest!

DanW
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by DanW

Why is the Polygon awesome? Because a paid ad first look article said so?

Why are 120mm forks rubbish in turns but 100mm forks rad?

The rest of it is 1+1=1882567622379 stuff, sorry. There is no free lunch with suspension or any part of bike design, just a matter of where you sit on various compromises.

USE and Whyte among many others have made linkage forks. Interesting in their own way but there are always compromises and your "dynamic" whatchamabob will just move the compromises around slightly differently.

wingguy
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by wingguy

milesthedog wrote:It really does, actually. Sure Polygon is using a super raised rear stay and they are using a sliding shaft for rear-end stability (but which has no suspension but, according to the Pinkbike article does have axle path qualities), but the actual design is very, very similar to a DW rear end, looking at the photos close up.

Because there's a short linkage in it?

I don't think you understand as much about suspension as you think you do....

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milesthedog
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by milesthedog

wingguy wrote:
I don't think you understand as much about suspension as you think you do....


Ha, yep. but seeing how my focus was on front suspension and I was saying a fork using kinematics like that of a dw-link, and that I was inspired by the 180mm Polygon bike riding like a trail bike, according to initial reviews, and seeing how the Polygon design would be near impossible to incorporate into a front linkage suspension design, but the DW design could be incorporated.... I'm not sure I really care if someone thinks my opinion that the Polygon design is similar in terms of kinematics to a dw-link design... but thoughts on a front fork linkage design with kinematics that make it superior to a telescoping fork, and which can have the best characteristics of longer travel forks with the pros of shorter travel forks... that would be interesting to read, whereas your comment was less than interesting

TheRookie
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by TheRookie

milesthedog wrote:
TheRookie wrote:
What the heck is dynamic suspension design?



DW, Maestro, Split Pivot, VPP, Delta, Switch Infinity.... are typically referred to as "dynamic" due to their linkage designs yielding a more optimal wheel path vs single pivot and first-gen 4-bar linkage systems.

'More optimal' says it all really.

The wheel path of a low mount single pivot on an XC travel bike works just fine with modern shocks.
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KWalker
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by KWalker

don't get caught in the linkage game. Dudes on forums go back and forth about it like it's paramount, but in the end it's just one piece of an overall design. In XC racing bikes with pretty old linkage concepts (Horst, single pivot, etc) have done pretty well the past 5 years. I've ridden a few bikes in the 120 travel range and the linkage wasn't really what made the big difference.
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milesthedog
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by milesthedog

KWalker wrote:don't get caught in the linkage game. Dudes on forums go back and forth about it like it's paramount, but in the end it's just one piece of an overall design. In XC racing bikes with pretty old linkage concepts (Horst, single pivot, etc) have done pretty well the past 5 years. I've ridden a few bikes in the 120 travel range and the linkage wasn't really what made the big difference.


Thanks, so reading the articles on the Polygon bike where the emphasis is on getting away from shocks doing the work for you, what are your thoughts on a 120mm bike that can ride like a pure XC bike but still have the technical climbing and descending pluses of a trail bike?

KWalker
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by KWalker

I own a Yeti ASR-C so......

But that wouldn't fit your need of a fancy linkage. I get the point of such linkages for bonafied trail bikes and some perform well for their purpose. Others add quite a lot of weight that won't make you any faster in an XC race.

So do several others on this forum and quite a few race on em. It's won stage races, XC races, and even a few enduros at the pro level. The Ibis Ripley OG geo is comparable, but heavier. My personal ASR-C is a hair over 22lbs with a dropper post. Friends have them near 21 with heavier tires. If I replaced my tires, had lighter wheels, and few lighter components sub 21 with a dropper is possible and the dropper weighs in at 300g heavier than a lighter rigid post.

I'm less familiar with a few other 120mm offerings, but the new Scott looks great to me. 2016 Fuel Ex does as well and lots of people love some of the Pivot offerings although they're a tad heavier. At the end of the day if you NEED the travel and linkage to race XC then you prob have more to work on than just bike setup, but if you WANT a bike that is fun to ride and race-able I do not think the linkage matters at this amount of trail. Any more and perhaps it does/would to avoid bob and anti-squat.
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LeDuke
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by LeDuke

The 120mm bike that intrigues me most at this moment is the new 120mm Scott Spark.

Has the same rear end, albeit with a different shock placement, as Yeti, Cannondale, etc. Same as Kona, from the looks of things.

Not really a fan of DW-link, VPP, or Maestro. I've owned three and, despite "new and improved" labels that sucked me in, always had to put way too much air into them to get them to act as the marketing literature described. Unless I was running like 10% sag or less (way, way too much), they bobbed quite a bit and never had the amazing pedaling performance I was told they'd provide.

Also, if this is the same Milesthedog from Blacksburg, VA:

All of the trails in our area can be ridden extremely fast on a modified single pivot bike like the ASRc, Scalpel, Kona Hei Hei Race DL, Spark (120 or 100), etc. I'd argue that tire selection is going to make more of a difference in getting up Royale and Prickly Pear quickly, and down Snake Root in one piece, than suspension design.

by Weenie


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gfeldy
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by gfeldy

KWalker wrote:I own a Yeti ASR-C so......

But that wouldn't fit your need of a fancy linkage. I get the point of such linkages for bonafied trail bikes and some perform well for their purpose. Others add quite a lot of weight that won't make you any faster in an XC race.

So do several others on this forum and quite a few race on em. It's won stage races, XC races, and even a few enduros at the pro level. The Ibis Ripley OG geo is comparable, but heavier. My personal ASR-C is a hair over 22lbs with a dropper post. Friends have them near 21 with heavier tires. If I replaced my tires, had lighter wheels, and few lighter components sub 21 with a dropper is possible and the dropper weighs in at 300g heavier than a lighter rigid post.

I'm less familiar with a few other 120mm offerings, but the new Scott looks great to me. 2016 Fuel Ex does as well and lots of people love some of the Pivot offerings although they're a tad heavier. At the end of the day if you NEED the travel and linkage to race XC then you prob have more to work on than just bike setup, but if you WANT a bike that is fun to ride and race-able I do not think the linkage matters at this amount of trail. Any more and perhaps it does/would to avoid bob and anti-squat.


Good advice, but I'd stay away from to many moving parts for a XC race bike. Less is more.
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