Producing power at high cadance

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ultyguy
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by ultyguy

I need to mash more!

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Rick
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by Rick

It also remains a fact that all the hour records were set with cadences of ~100RPM. So maybe elite athletes are elite because they have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers that actually are more powerful/ efficient at high RPM. I am certainly not "elite" and I am treading at the low side of "mediocre". :unbelievable:

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

Keep in mind, "mashing" does not mean "pedalling slower".

Also, it has suggested that over the course of an athlete's career Type 2b* muscle fibres are actually recruited and behave more like Type 1 fibres. Which is why the top Pro's can hold speeds that we are pushing into our anaerobic capacity to maintain while they are still well within their aerobic zone.


*quite sure it's Type 2b, will stand corrected though

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Rick
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by Rick

Tinea Pedis wrote:Keep in mind, "mashing" does not mean "pedalling slower".

Can you elaborate on that ?

When I got into cycling, smooth spinning was emphasized. So I always suspected that I actually "wasted time" worrying about a smooth stroke and should have spent more time simply pushing down hard on the pedals. As a result, I do have a pretty smooth spin and have spent many hrs spinning away at high cadence in criteriums, etc. ...it just doesn't produce as much power for me.

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

Rick wrote:When I got into cycling

We need you to get past this. Things have changed. Sorry Rick, don't mean to sound harsh - I just cannot think of how better to put this.

And I did

viewtopic.php?p=993955#p993955

cannot find the study at present, but there was a large analysis (in the USA I think) where they had cyclists ranging from Cat 3 to Cat 1 and Pro's. The 'smoother' and 'rounded' pedal strokes primarily belonged to the lower level riders.

As the level (and power) improved, the more the stroke was a 'mash'.

KWalker
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by KWalker

Tinea Pedis wrote:Keep in mind, "mashing" does not mean "pedalling slower".

Also, it has suggested that over the course of an athlete's career Type 2b* muscle fibres are actually recruited and behave more like Type 1 fibres. Which is why the top Pro's can hold speeds that we are pushing into our anaerobic capacity to maintain while they are still well within their aerobic zone.


*quite sure it's Type 2b, will stand corrected though

They can be recruited as oxidative fibers, but its not as big as people would think.
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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

Point was, it contributes more than was originally thought.

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Rick
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by Rick

Tinea Pedis wrote:
Rick wrote:When I got into cycling

We need you to get past this. Things have changed. Sorry Rick, don't mean to sound harsh - I just cannot think of how better to put this.

.

No "harshness" taken. It has just taken me a long time to really accept that smooth spinning is really not all that effective and "mashing" really works! :)

But I infer that one can also "mash" at higher cadence, i.e. concentrate on a forceful "Pulse" on the downstroke of each pedal rotation, and without regard to the smoothness of the rest of the stroke ?

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

Absolutely. The down stroke carries enough velocity that it whips the opposing 'up' stroke through.

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devinci
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by devinci

why not forget all the pedal smoothness and cadence misonceptions alltogether?

Just focus on producing the required effort for the required time duration, then, post-ride analysis should take care of what cadence you naturally are using at different power output.

HillRPete
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by HillRPete

I can very well imagine that riding an artificially smooth stroke comes with an efficiency cost, even if well trained (hindsight is 20/20, too). The human physiology lends itself way better to loaded leg extension than (loaded) retraction. I can't think of any need to retract with extra weight in the evolution of hominids, am I missing something?

Edit: loaded retraction, for clarity.
Last edited by HillRPete on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DMF
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by DMF

Unless you retract you're also pushing dead weight... I'll bet the retraction costs less than pushing the dead weight... while I do agree that taking a smooth pedal stroke to the brink of perfection might not serve a purpose...

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Rick
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by Rick

devinci wrote:why not forget all the pedal smoothness and cadence misonceptions alltogether?

Just focus on producing the required effort for the required time duration, then, post-ride analysis should take care of what cadence you naturally are using at different power output.

Good idea; that is how I got on to this idea in the first place. But I couldn't really quantify it until I had a power meter.
In the past, timed efforts always had some uncertainty due to weather conditions and day-to-day variations in perceived exertion. And when going by perceived exertion I always choose a higher cadence. It was only by noticing that the power was actually higher when pedaling at very low cadence that I started questioning. With the power meter it doesn't have to be post-ride, because I set the unit to show both 3 second power and power averaged over the interval. So it is instant faeedback with the average also displayed for any length interval I choose.

Then, I also thought that maybe I actually am "exerting" more at high cadence, but it is just inefficient exertion that does not translate into power to the cranks. It does make some logical sense that efficiency would be higher at low cadence, because you can imagine that if taken to extremes, you could flail away at high rpms in such a low gear that you are producing no power. But you can always stomp hard on the pedals even at very low cadence.

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ultyguy
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by ultyguy

While we're myth debunking...one of the main 'smooth stroke' advantages I've always seen is as it pertains specifically to climbing. The idea being that any lack of smoothness would require the wheels to make a small deceleration and acceleration on each revolution and therefore costing you energy...myth?

Oh, and another interesting take...
http://www.roadbikerider.com/cycling-sc ... al-strokes

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