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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:26 pm 
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These arrived today:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:38 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
MichaelB wrote:
If you haven't yet done it, grab an opportunity to ride a ROAD disc bike, esp in the rain, and see the reality.


Paradoxical statement. Grab an opportunity to ride especially in the rain?

I can see road discs being great for those of you who live in areas with, frankly, shit weather. That's great. For you.

I can see them being great for commuting. In fact, I would buy one for commuting.
I can see them being great for touring. I would buy one for off-road capabilities and touring purposes.

For racing? Nope. Neither aero nor light.
For sportifs? I don't see that either - neither aero, nor light, nor likely that you'll spend the entire duration of a decent short ride (100mi is short) in the rain.
For general road riding? Again, if you live in an area with shit weather (rain) all the time, then this might be your saving grace. Yay.

I don't take my weather for granted, but at the same time I do feel empathetic sorrow for those of you who live in such miserable conditions. Go get your discs! DO IT!
But don't apply your absolutes to everyone else.

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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:38 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:29 am 
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prendrefeu wrote:
...you'll spend the entire duration of a decent short ride (100mi is short)


prendrefeu wrote:
But don't apply your absolutes to everyone else.


:roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:34 am 
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Pharmstrong wrote:
prendrefeu wrote:
...you'll spend the entire duration of a decent short ride (100mi is short)


prendrefeu wrote:
But don't apply your absolutes to everyone else.


:roll:


Nice of you to try and do some selective editing with the removal of the key word likely in the sentence you quoted and the context: sportifs.
Unless you, pharmstrong, are stating that a person is likely to ride a sportif in the rain for the entire duration of the ride? Most sportifs are 100mi avg or less.
Ultra distances? If you're racing it, you want some aero in there. Likelihood that disc brakes will out weigh (no pun) the aero loss? Minimal. Is it really that much more beneficial? Debatable. Most ultras are not scheduled for wet weather months for a reason: the weather. Who in their right mind actually would pay to participate in an event that is scheduled to have rain during its entire duration? In all of the doubles I've done, whether official or not, only one was in the rain for the entire 200mi. One. Freak storm came in over night. Discs? Wouldn't have made much of a difference to be honest, braking was fine. There wasn't much descending nor was the course technical to make a disc necessary.

But you're right, I'm embarrassed. :oops: After much thought, you and a few others do intentionally sign up for sportifs that are always in the rain, every year, and therefore your experiences, as stated by MichaelB, to whom I was originally replying, apply to everyone, as MichaelB stated, that once you take the opportunity to ride in the rain you will be unquestionably convinced that discs are a necessity.

Discs have their applications. Whether they're happening in a Catholic affair ("in mass") or they'll be more of them in mfg lineups we shall see, but to insinuate that they would be necessary for all types of riding is silly.

Let me return the favour: :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:39 am 
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maddog 2 wrote:
Although I admit that many riders can't ride down a hill properly.

The aero thing is something that people get in a tizz about but disc rims can be made lighter and more aero, and made with carbon without the braking issues that some have, so overall I'd say this probably evens itself out.

The weight thing is probably real, but as the tech catches up there won't be much in it. Di2 was heavier than mechanical when it came out but that didn't stop every rich dude wanting it. So I'd take this with a pinch of salt too.

And as for the UCI... well who cares what they think! Crikey they've been stifling bike design for too long. Sod them. The bike companies need to get something to market and let the punters decide. It's about time the buying public kicked the UCI into shape.

But hey, I'm all for people buying what they want. If you want to stick with cr@ppy rim brakes that's fine. I won't. I ride on real, UK roads. Discs are simply miles ahead of rim brakes for me.


This certainly is a lot of opinionated statements for somebody that doesn't care.

So far, the demand isn't there. Most road riders and racers feel current brakes work well enough (except for long, steep mountains), don't like the extra weight, don't want the potential aero issues, and see it as a solution looking for a problem. They see disc work okay for tandems, people that carry lots of weight like touring rigs, or ride in the rain a lot. But that's it. Colnago sales haven't been all that good and that's a huge test


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:41 am 
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morrisond wrote:
A good option for Light Disc Rims are ENVE 29XC Clincher Rims - they are approved for 23mm Clincher Use and are only 385 grams each - a definite weight savings over 45 Clinchers or 3.4's as there is no brake track.

Not that Aero but nice and wide - they should handle great.

Combine them with some Tune Mig/Mag and you have an easily sub 1,400 gram wheelset.


i dont think they are designed for 120psi, more like 65psi.


i would prefer cable vs hydro for the easier setup, but there is no doubt that hydro has better modulation and power. though cable disc give more power than rim brakes.

lets talk about aero. so disc's are not aero, says who? but then neither were firecrest fatty/blunt wheels in the past, it was all about V shape. whats aero or not changes as much as the USADA says which types of foods are good for you. one day carrots are good for you the next they will kill you slowly.lol i dont think a dude is going to be faster than me on the bike because i have disc and he has rim brakes... do we know how much drag a rim brake has on the bike; in front of the fork and seat stays? we have companies hiding the calipers behind the fork, integrating them into the fork, brake caliper below/behind the Bottom Bracket, etc. its a lot of heavy marketing and in all of that there is some truth (minuscule). you can believe what you want to believe, ive got nothing against that, just dont try to bash disc on road bikes, its not what this threads about.

Carbon rims delaminate when braking hard and long with rim brakes- fact
Carbon rims can be made lighter if used for disc vs. rim braking - fact
disc brakes have better power and modulation, allowing for more accurate and precise late braking - fact
disc brakes are beter in ALL weather conditions - fact
disc brake are less aero than a conventional rim brake set up - hmm, prove it!!! lets see disc drag vs. rim brake drag

i asked the question, do you guys think this will happen in mass in the next year or so - its turned out to be a "we dont need it, bla bla bla, im the best descender in the world, etc..." thread. state your opinion and be cool about it; its not for you, then its not for you - hopefully you dont have to eat your words later.

Dammit - post pics of the full bike with the enve disc forks


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:05 am 
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spytech wrote:
Carbon rims delaminate when braking hard and long with rim brakes- fact


They did. Years ago. They don't anymore. Even the "ooooo scary don't trust them" open mould wheels perform very well on steep, long descents. Where have you been?

spytech wrote:
Carbon rims can be made lighter if used for disc vs. rim braking - fact


Show us a lighter rim that is designed for disc specifically. Are there any changes necessary to strengthen the rim in order to balance against the braking force to the spokes & nipples now with discs? (Honest question)

spytech wrote:
disc brake are less aero than a conventional rim brake set up - hmm, prove it!!! lets see disc drag vs. rim brake drag


Really? Is that a genuine question? I mean, have you seen the frontal profile of a hub's rotor & disc (and the tailing profile of the caliper along a fork or stay) compared to the very small area profile of decent brakes (such as ee, or integrated brakes on Storck, TT bikes) ? Really?

cyclenutnz wrote:
given that Damon from Cervelo said that aero testing the P5 with discs negated all the superbike design benefits


In this very thread, spytech.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:42 am 
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@spytech ... please go ahead and adopt "in mass".

Be aware our bikes will then be lighter and more aero relatively speaking.

But you'll stop quicker in the rain (when we're in inside watching Paris-Roubaix or something.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:27 pm 
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The advent of discs will be pushed upon us....it will give manufacturers scope for new wheel designs, now that trueness will no longer be as necassary, we can look forward to spokeless/nippleless (ooh errrr) designs, through axle hubs etc.

its not the end of the world..... its just bikes.... cliche ad nauseum.....


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Good point about trueness corky, though you'd still want true wheels even if not for braking purposes.

I kind of agree with you - there will be a push to see if there's money in it. I wonder how much take-up until/if pros adopt discs however.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:08 pm 
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spytech wrote:
morrisond wrote:
A good option for Light Disc Rims are ENVE 29XC Clincher Rims - they are approved for 23mm Clincher Use and are only 385 grams each - a definite weight savings over 45 Clinchers or 3.4's as there is no brake track.

Not that Aero but nice and wide - they should handle great.

Combine them with some Tune Mig/Mag and you have an easily sub 1,400 gram wheelset.


i dont think they are designed for 120psi, more like 65psi.


i would prefer cable vs hydro for the easier setup, but there is no doubt that hydro has better modulation and power. though cable disc give more power than rim brakes.

lets talk about aero. so disc's are not aero, says who? but then neither were firecrest fatty/blunt wheels in the past, it was all about V shape. whats aero or not changes as much as the USADA says which types of foods are good for you. one day carrots are good for you the next they will kill you slowly.lol i dont think a dude is going to be faster than me on the bike because i have disc and he has rim brakes... do we know how much drag a rim brake has on the bike; in front of the fork and seat stays? we have companies hiding the calipers behind the fork, integrating them into the fork, brake caliper below/behind the Bottom Bracket, etc. its a lot of heavy marketing and in all of that there is some truth (minuscule). you can believe what you want to believe, ive got nothing against that, just dont try to bash disc on road bikes, its not what this threads about.

Carbon rims delaminate when braking hard and long with rim brakes- fact
Carbon rims can be made lighter if used for disc vs. rim braking - fact
disc brakes have better power and modulation, allowing for more accurate and precise late braking - fact
disc brakes are beter in ALL weather conditions - fact
disc brake are less aero than a conventional rim brake set up - hmm, prove it!!! lets see disc drag vs. rim brake drag

i asked the question, do you guys think this will happen in mass in the next year or so - its turned out to be a "we dont need it, bla bla bla, im the best descender in the world, etc..." thread. state your opinion and be cool about it; its not for you, then its not for you - hopefully you dont have to eat your words later.

Dammit - post pics of the full bike with the enve disc forks



From Enve's Website - 23 MM Approved for 120 PSI - Nice 24 MM Width

http://www.enve.com/wheels/mtb/twenty9XC.aspx


Maximum tire pressure:
Tire Width
Max Pressure (PSI)
20c
135
23c
120
25c
115
28c
100
33c
80
38c
65
1.9"
50
2.1"
45
2.25"
40
2.4"
35


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:20 pm 
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Location: Belgium
This is funny. I noticed the same discussion about 13 years ago when discs entered the MTB world. I also never wanted discs because you don't need more brakepower and all the other 'problems'. Now, no one with a MTB ever want to go back to v-brakes (ok, maybe some lonely guy)

No weared down rims anymore, no flat tyres because of heat, are some other advantages.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:33 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Dennis' atatement. The MTB crowd got over this one along time ago. I know the requirements of disc brakes for road bikes are different but for the average club rider discs would be of benefit. For elite racing maybe not but those folks are not normal anyway.

I use canti's on one MTB but is a period correct retro bild not for serious riding or racing.

Discs specific rims are lighter just look at the XC offerings from Stans and DT Swiss. They have 350g discs specific 26" rims. Sun Ringle once did a 350g rim brake 26" rim but they did not last long. The lighest rim brake 26" rims are about 425g. A disc specific alloy rim would be about 350g - 400g depending on how stiff it is (maybe lighter). Disc specific carbon clincher rims would be perfect.

Until someone does wind tunnel tests on disc brakes v rim brakes you are all just guessing about how not aero they are. Also most people do not ride fast enogh for long enough to worry about aero kit.

I am looking forward to my first disc brake bike and there are many parts of the world were heavy rain is common. We don't all live in deserts.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:06 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
For elite racing maybe not but those folks are not normal anyway.

.



This. If pros and elites don't adopt them they are much less appealing to club cyclists.

Otherwise no bike manufacturers would even bother sponsoring teams.

It is possible the manufacturers push the UCI into it of course ...


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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:06 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Location: Surrey UK
@ bm0p700f Move just few miles south and you should be fine :wink:
And with the highest point of the county 128 m (420 ft) you still need discs....?

Personally, I wouldn't like to be forced to go for discs at all. I hope that the market and industry will leave this as an option only, not necessity.

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