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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:13 pm 
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new to the art of wheelbuilding and building up my first own pair of wheels here.

a question: I'm building a 24h rear, deciding on the lacing pattern: whats the benefit of 2x DS and radial NDS as compared to 2x on both the DS and NDS?


I've also heard that 1x is better than radial- whats the advantage of 1x over radial? would it then be better to have a 2x DS and 1x NDS lacing?


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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:13 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Radial NDS lacing looks cleaner. . that's about it. In my opinion there is no benefits to having any radial spokes anywhere on a rear wheel. They put a lot of stress on the hub flanges and they don't transfer torque as well. With a radial spoke the entry of the spoke into the nipple is directly threaded with no angle on the spoke at all. This, combined with lower tensions make it easier for a NDS radial spoke to have the nipple unwind when riding.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:55 pm 
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2x both sides is sturdier and is easier to lace for a beginner than 1x on one side and 2x on the other.
1x has at least some bracing angle and the spokes can be interlaced, so they don't go slack quite as easily.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:29 pm 
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The benefit of using radial is that if the spokes are laced heads out, then the NDS bracing angle will be lower and thus the tension imbalance between the DS and NDS can be reduced. This obviously comes at the expense of the bracing angle and thus stiffness. With certain hubs which have a large disparity between flange spacing, this is sometimes worth the trade-off.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:15 am 
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Hi davidalone, there are a couple of benefits of NDS radial lacing when used in a 16-8, or similar, arrangement ...
- Heads In lacing which produces a better bracing angle and a laterally stiffer wheel
- Nearly equal DS/NDS spoke tension

Negatives are ...
- Spoke breakage which leads to an unrideable, and usually unrepairable, wheel and perhaps even frame damage
- High NDS flange strain
- Poor NDS Torque Control (1x is marginally better)

I have probably missed a point or two or three ...
thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:18 pm 
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so. if I'm getting this right:
for a standard setup ( i.e. equal spoke holes on both flanges),

a 2x DS, radial NDS wheel:
advantages: looks , tension in spokes is more even, hence rim is more protected?
disadvantages : wheel is not as laterally stiff. transfers torque poorly. radial side comes loose easily.

for a both sides 2x wheel
advantages: wheel is built up stiffer. with generally higher spoke tension and doesn't go slack- stronger wheel.
disadvantage: slightly longer spokes, doesnt look as nice. NDS spoke tension higher than DS, meaning spokes tend to break on the NDS and damage the rim?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:58 pm 
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The correct answer is it depends. Other variables involved.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:07 pm 
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I'm sure there are 6 dozen pages on this in the wheelbuilding thread. Why is 2x stiffer if radial heads in gives a better bracing angle?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:08 pm 
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davidalone wrote:
so. if I'm getting this right:
for a standard setup ( i.e. equal spoke holes on both flanges),


for a both sides 2x wheel
advantages: wheel is built up stiffer. with generally higher spoke tension and doesn't go slack- stronger wheel.
disadvantage: slightly longer spokes, doesnt look as nice. NDS spoke tension higher than DS, meaning spokes tend to break on the NDS and damage the rim?


Breaking a NDS spoke rarely ever damages the rim. In my experience because the 2X lacing holds better and transfers torque better crossing the spokes results in fewer broken spokes. A radial spoke will try to transfer torque but won't until the spoke slightly changes angle, which can stress the elbows.
I have never really see a 2X/radial where somebody laced the nds spokes all elbows out to take advantage of the added stiffness (although it's definitely possible). One thing to realize is when you double cross the spokes on the NDS, half of them are elbows out so it will be a stiffer build compared to radial lacing the traditional way (which is elbows facing inward).

Tensioning and truing a wheel with radial NDS spokes is much quicker. When you double cross the spokes and start to do even turns on the nipples you'll see that half of them come up to tension quickly and half of them will still be at lower tension because of the angles of the spoke depending on which side of the hub shell the elbow is. With radial spokes there is no crossing and the tension will come up even (which is why you see all of the direct from China wheels laced this way, it's much quicker to build).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:20 pm 
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A marked disadvantage that I've noticed is that radial NDS spokes can go slack particularly with a soft rim. If you were to lace up the XR200s or the old 340s with a radial NDS, I think you would be asking for trouble.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:36 am 
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ergott wrote:
The correct answer is it depends. Other variables involved.


+1


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:27 am 
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Hi davidalone, unfortunately it is not that simple, because you also need to include the hub (hub specifications), rim ERD, and rider weight into the equation.

If the NDS spoke tension (NDS ratio) can be 50 to 60% or more of DS spoke tension (for the same DS/NDS flange spacing) then 2xDS 2xNDS makes a much stronger wheel (and 3xDS 2xNDS is even stronger) than 2xDS 0xNDS wheel.

Low NDS Ratio and light rider weight (<70kgs, depending on ERD, DS Flange Dia, and FTF spacing) will allow you to use 0xNDS should you wish to, but 2xDS 2xNDS or 3xDS 2xNDS are more robust, compliant, nearly as light, and have good symmetry.

3xDS 1xNDS is an alternative :)

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:57 pm 
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KLabs wrote:
when used in a 16-8, or similar, arrangement ...
Negatives are ...
- Spoke breakage which leads to an unrideable, and usually unrepairable, wheel and perhaps even frame damage


Do you have real life testimonials about this actually happened ? Or you're talking about theory...?

Cause I never read anywhere about somebody being ejected from the bike because of a NDS spoke breakage, either on any Fulcrum wheel, or else...

Louis :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:51 am 
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LouisN wrote:
KLabs wrote:
when used in a 16-8, or similar, arrangement ...
Negatives are ...
- Spoke breakage which leads to an unrideable, and usually unrepairable, wheel and perhaps even frame damage

Do you have real life testimonials about this actually happened ? Or you're talking about theory...?
Cause I never read anywhere about somebody being ejected from the bike because of a NDS spoke breakage, either on any Fulcrum wheel, or else...
Louis :)

Hi Louis, Fulcrum use the Campag 14-7 triplet arrangement which is symmetrically better than the 16-8 arrangement. They both work but the Campag design works better, although the spoke tension is an issue with this arrangement. That is, if the spoke tensions are to high the rim can bulge between the triplets, so the stiffness of this design is limited. :)

Yes, I do have an example. A friend just recently was using the 16-8 design with a 24mm deep alloy rim and a NDS spoke broke. The rim buckled so badly that it jammed against the chain stay and definitely was nolonger rideable. A new rim was required for the rebuild. The frame needed repairing also.

The 16-8 arrangement is still a good approach though, but like all designs it requires optimization to work well :)

thanks KL :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:22 pm 
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davidalone wrote:
a 2x DS, radial NDS wheel:
advantages: looks , tension in spokes is more even, hence rim is more protected?
disadvantages : wheel is not as laterally stiff. transfers torque poorly. radial side comes loose easily.


The real advantage is looks (ie matches the front lacing), and the NDS spokes will not transfer torque... which can be helpful if you are worried about them going slack. The only disadvantage is that the DS spokes will have to transfer all the torque... which might not be ideal in some situations (ie when torque is very high... heavy guys sprinting up 20% grades).

They don't come loose if the wheel is built properly. If you are counting on binding in the nipple/rim interface to keep them from unwinding when spokes go slack, then you will also have unnecessary stress in that area. And radial spokes may make the wheel stiffer or less stiff depending on heads-out or heads-in. But stiffness and tension are tradeoffs, so it depends on the application. On many current hubs low tension is the bigger issue.

http://www.whitemountainwheels.com/LacingPatterns.html

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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:22 pm 


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