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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Hi all, I'm after some new energy drink type supplement and was wondering what everyone else uses and how you find it? I'm currently using Maxim orange and lemon with electrolytes. Are there some that stand head and shoulders above the rest if so what are they?

Appreciate other people's views here

Thanks
Christian


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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:19 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:21 am 
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Water is pretty fantastic.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:23 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
Water for most of my training and rides...

Racing...ummm water.... if anything.

When I do go for a mix:
HEED (electrolytes centric)
or
Perpetuem (sorta like liquid food in terms of content) (only for 'long' rides) (and then, only one of the two bottles, the other is water)

Perpetuem simply because most events and races are sponsored by Hammer Nutrition, so I'd rather have my body used to that mix/content prior to the event.

There's also the option of mixing HEED & Perpetuem - I've done that once on a 24h ride, turned out pretty well enough.

In the meantime, I've got 5 unopened canisters of Herbalife's 24 "Endurance" and slowly working my way through it. Again, only the 'long' rides.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:19 am 
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Most energy drinks are a colossal waste of time for true "performance enhancing". Even the need for electrolytes is questionable. Carbs in the drink can be useful for longer events at which point cordial can be good, and simple!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:11 am 
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This is one of does repeat topics. You can search this, and other sites and find long threads on the subject.
Your question about some product being head an shoulder above some one else: No (then again, I haven't tried them all). But they are all basically different mix of fructose and glucose. Which is a question of, do you want the energy now or later. There are pros and cons to both. On top of that you can also get a mix of different elements that you might or might not need. You can get gels and energy drinks with added protein, magnesium, electrolytes, caffeine ex. They have different properties, so the question really is, what do you need. Do you sweet a lot, do you have problem with cramps, do you have a high training load, which means you need to focus on restitution, or do you simple need added energy to your rides.
I agree that you cannot find a performance enhancing energy product, but you should be aware of what the energy products can offer you. Its not performance enhancing product, but it is a way to control when you 'eat'. You do need extra energy from compared to your non-training daily energy needs. So when do you want to add the needed energy to the system? Before, during or after the ride, or a mix of the above. Here energy product offer an easier way of taking in energy during the ride. Compared to bringing your lunch on your ride. Which you can read from the above replies, is especially needed on longer ride.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Location: Perth W.A
I use XTEND and 32GI in one bottle for when the bonk starts to kick .. I am hypoglycemic so they help

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:23 pm 
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I am a big guy who does sweat a lot. I find I get problems with cramps especially on hot days. Caffeine exacerbates this problem for me.

I have been working with the eat your calories and drink your fluids philosophy especially on hot days so have been focusing more on electrolytes and staying away from sugary energy drinks. I like the Scratch mixes and the Nuun tabs I find work well for me.

Have played with it a lot over the years and found sugary drinks or especially the protein containing ones unpalatable or hard to get enough in to keep from cramping at the end of long hard rides.

Now I just have to remember to eat.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:11 am 
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Another vote for Skratch Labs. I'm 77 kilos and sweat a lot too. Water alone equals cramps. Used to drink Cytomax regularly and have used Clif, PowerBar, Gatorade, Nuun, MotorTabs, Zipvit and I'm sure many others. Skratch goes down easy, doesn't cause intestinal distress and has lots of electrolytes. I've never used Osmo, but it appears to be quite similar to Skratch. Skratch is also available in single serving packs which are great for longer rides. The Nuun and MotorTab tablets work well and are super easy to pack, but I don't like having to wait for them to effervesce before capping my bottle.

To the people that think electrolytes are unnecessary and/or just drink water, do you never get cramps? Do you never get a nice white crust layer on yourself or your gear (helmet especially) when it's hot?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:45 am 
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I get cramps and I just drink water. But then I drank all the "sports drinks" previously and still got cramps. How could that be? Mainly because electrolyte balance, even in "heavy sweaters", does not correspond in all cases to cramps. Analysis of power data usually reveals that cramps are most common when demands has exceeded capability ie: conditioning.

Have a read of what the boys at http://www.sportsscientists.com/ have done on this topic.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:15 pm 
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Tapeworm you always have something interesting to say. Interesting articles, I only had a real quick look as need to get ready for race tonight. I thought in general the cited articles were poor and the conclusions by the authors as well as the folks who ran the website were very biased in different directions. Essentially they both went in with a conclusion they wanted to support and made the data fit that conclusion. Actually your quote on physiology fits perfect.
Thanks for the link, will look into it in detail later. Allan Lim also did some studies again when designing skratch with the Garmin team. Methodologically it was a nightmare and he really just drew conclusions from the results of CVV and some other members, so take it for what it is worth. It is hard to do real research at races where so many other variables can play a role.
Absolutely I agree that fitness and cramps go hand in hand. Under hydration and under eating both also play a large role for me. Banging back 2 gels and half a bottle usually corrects the situation at least for a while if I can survive the immediate bloating.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:20 pm 
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I keep it cheap. I mix in Tang (at lower concentrations than they recommend), which has calcium, and Elete electrolytes. I do it based on ratios derived from the WHO oral re-hydration therapy standards and what is palatable. For a 24 oz water bottle (large one) it works out to 3.25 Tbsp of Tang and 1 tsp of Elete. Depending how I feel I often cut the acidity down some with some baking soda. Most rides one bottle is that mixture and the other is water. I do this because it is so cheap, customizable, and readily available and it matches actual science instead of obscure marketing campaigns. It is true that the science isn't very clear on the need for electrolyte replenishment during exercise. However, the science is EXTREMELY clear in that pure water is not best for maximum re-hydration. If you want that water to be absorbed faster you need to match more closely the proper molarity. When I'm pouring water down my throat during a race, I want it absorbed ASAP and not 40 minutes later while I'm trying to piss for the drug control long after the race is over.

I'm a vegan so that rules out some food options on the bike. I make my own gel in a Gu flask. The mixture is roughly 6 Tbsp of brown rice syrup, 2 Tbsp of agave, a pinch of sodium salt, a pinch of potassium salt, and an extract (usually orange). Mix with a bit of water and pour into the flask. The gel is for emergencies and racing only.

On the bike I try to eat Kind bars (sponsor provided), pitted dates, bananas, dried mangoes, dried pineapple, and other items that don't have commercials or advertisements. If it's not a race, I keep it real.

For touring I go only wholesome foods. Bagels, breads, nut butters, trail mixes, and again, lots of fruit dried and fresh. At least one meal each day needs to pack on a load of vegetables with the starches. Often washed down with juices such as peach nectar, mango nectar, or whatever I can find in the country I am in.

Finally, I take a similar approach to Graeme Obree in training my energy systems. I make one hard ride during a week-ish training cycle a glycogen ride. I ride hard and without food to get the body used to using fats. Does this work? I don't know. I see no reason not to do it if you can properly restore your depleted glycogen. I make sure my dinner after is appropriate and well-timed and I've never suffered ill-effects from this training.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:46 am 
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drchull wrote:
...I thought in general the cited articles were poor and the conclusions by the authors as well as the folks who ran the website were very biased in different directions. Essentially they both went in with a conclusion they wanted to support and made the data fit that conclusion...


And I think this part of the issue especially around cramping is that the amount of research is poor, and that bias can be used to swing arguments either way.

I think one overlooked aspect of cramping which you mentioned and I have experienced myself is cramping (whilst still pushing my limits) and that of caffeine. A single coffee seems to have little effect but when I was racing and double espresso, large Red Bull and gels with caffeine and I was having issues. I found one very dusty study looking at this possibility from the 80s I think.

Its seems with cramping that it is highly personal but generally I haven't found many cases (and had to help a few people) with cramping that where the person wasn't pushing their limits, either duration and/or intensity.

More research!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:04 am 
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dvincere wrote:
However, the science is EXTREMELY clear in that pure water is not best for maximum re-hydration....When I'm pouring water down my throat during a race, I want it absorbed ASAP and not 40 minutes later while I'm trying to piss for the drug control long after the race is over...


Where did you get that it takes 45mins for water to be absorbed??

Here's some reading for you :-
http://www.jappl.org/content/84/5/1581.short
http://jap.physiology.org/content/71/6/2518.short
http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/5/1941.short

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:19 am 
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45 minutes was a number just pulled out of air. You can't really drink in the final so many minutes of a race. Anyways, from your own links:

"We conclude that 1) exercise has no effect on water or solute absorption in the duodenojejunum, 2) fluid absorption occurs significantly faster from a CE solution than from water, and 3) fluid absorption is increased sixfold by addition of carbohydrate to an electrolyte solution."

Seems it's just supporting exactly what I said. Carbohydrates plus electrolytes get the fluids to you faster during proper hydration regimes.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:24 am 
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Ah. So you were just making up fact then?

And the counter the study you quoted is the other one I posted which is:-
"There were no differences (P > 0.05) in gastric emptying (mean 18.1 ± 1.3 ml/min) or total fluid absorption (802 ± 109, 650 ± 52, 674 ± 62, and 633 ± 74 ml ⋅ 50 cm−1 ⋅ h−1for WP, hypo-, iso-, and hypertonic solutions, respectively) among beverages; but WP was absorbed faster (P < 0.05) from the duodenum than in the jejunum."

So the science is real clear. :roll: There are many advantages to consuming carbohydrate in fluids however, so they have many uses and I am not advocating their avoidance.

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"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:24 am 


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