Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am
Hey WinterRider, for the NDS spoke lacing for a 16:12 arrangement, lets keep it simple ... 3xDS and 3xNDS but with the 3xNDS leave out every 4th spoke
I believe that leaving out every 4th NDS spoke should mean that the NDS spokes should all be the same length and about the same spoke tension

According to the calculations it will be interesting to see what NDS ratio we get when using a Shimano 7900 32H hub, 130mm OLD, 28H rim
For a 3xDS 3xNDS 16:12 spoking ... according to the calculations we should get about ...
- NDS Tension = (120 * 0.53) * (16/12) = 84.8kgf
- Total Bracing angle = 3.8 + 7.2 = 11.0 degrees (good torque control, good wheel lateral stiffness)

For a 3xDS 2xNDS 16:12 spoking ... an alternative ...
- NDS Tension should be about 90kgf ... something like (120 * 0.59) * (16/12) >= 94.8kgf
- Total Bracing angle = 3.9 + 7.4 = 11.3 degrees (good torque control, good wheel lateral stiffness)

bm0p700f
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Winter rider. I was comparing the DT Swiss 240 and Miche hubs using the same rim and same spokes. That is vaild read my bloody post.

Also Klabs while the general theme of your post is fine the way you are adding together bracing angles is meaningless. The trigometry of what is going on does not work that way.
Last edited by bm0p700f on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am
bm0p700f wrote:Spoc calc (the excel version) will work out the bracing angle and tension balance for you although it is not set up for triplet designs.
NDS bracing angle is very important. The DT Swiss 240 road hub has short NDS flange to centre spacing. The Miche RG2 hb has similar PCD and DS flange spacing but wide NDS flange spacing. Built a wheel with the same spokes and rim on the two hubs and the wheel with the Miche hub has signifiicantly more lateral stiffness.

The miche hub will give a tension balance of 44% but is stiff. The DTSwiss 240 hub will give a tension balance of 50 or 52% with the rim I used but is like a bloody noodle - it's hopeless. So much so infact I will only use the 240 hub now with deep V- section rims like the RR585 or with shallow depth rim for low power output riders and then only in 32H drilling with Race spokes or similar.

So bracing angle is more important than tension which is why my wheels with the miche hub and very low NDS tension work. If I had biuilt the wheel with the 240 hub I would have broken spokes by now I am sure as well as rim hitting pads all the time I aply even moderate torque.

If you want equal tension ride a flip flop or a fixed wheel bike.

Hey WinterRider, bm0p700f is correct but it is due to the Total Bracing Angle effect combined with reasonable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness.
The Miche RG2 hub has much better Total Bracing Angle and acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ... I shall work it out

Miche RG2 32H hub, 130mm OLD, flange dia=46mm, CRF= 17mm, CLF=37mm,NDS ratio = 46% (just acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio)
- 32H Rim ERD 535mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.8 + 8.1 = 11.9 degrees (good to excellent for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 555mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.6 + 7.9 = 11.5 degrees (good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 575mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.5 + 7.6 = 11.1 degrees (good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 600mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.3 + 7.2 = 10.5 degrees (average for lateral wheel stiffness - Velocity A23)

DT Swiss 240S hub, 130mm OLD, flange dia=46mm, CRF= 16.9mm, CLF=32.6mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, NDS ratio = 52% (acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio)
- 32H Rim ERD 515mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.9 + 7.5 = 11.4 degrees (good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 535mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.7 + 7.2 = 10.9 degrees (average to good for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 555mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.6 + 6.9 = 10.5 degrees (average for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 575mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.5 + 6.7 = 10.2 degrees (average to bad for lateral wheel stiffness)
- 32H Rim ERD 600mm, 3xDS 3xNDS, Total Bracing Angle = 3.3 + 6.4 = 9.7 degrees (bad for lateral wheel stiffness - Velocity A23)
Last edited by KLabs on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:16 am, edited 10 times in total.

bm0p700f
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Total bracing angle the way you described it is not real. It is more the sum of the tangents of the bracing angles.

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am
KLabs wrote:Hey WinterRider, for the NDS spoke lacing for a 16:12 arrangement, lets keep it simple ... 3xDS and 3xNDS but with the 3xNDS leave out every 4th spoke
I believe that leaving out every 4th NDS spoke should mean that the NDS spokes should all be the same length and about the same spoke tension

Hey WinterRider, do you like this approach
... what hub(s) are you thinking of using?
... what DS Spoke tension do you want to use?

The Novatec F162SB 32H 130 looks good http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp
- 28H Rim ERD = 600mm, CTF = 39/18, F Ø = 49/49, FTF = 57, 9/10spd Freehub, 3xDS 3xNDS, 16:12 NDS ratio = 61.3% (Good NDS tension/detension ratio)
- Total Bracing Angle = 7.7 + 3.5 = 11.2 degrees (Good lateral wheel stiffness)

The Novatec F482SB also looks pretty good and even better than the Chris King hub (but not quality wise)

Chris King R45 32H 130
- 28H Rim ERD = 600mm, CTF = 34.6/18.9, F Ø = 51/51, FTF = 53.5, 9/10spd Freehub, 3xDS 3xNDS, 16:12 NDS ratio = 73.3% (Good to Very Good NDS tension/detension ratio)
- Total Bracing Angle = 6.8 + 3.7 = 10.5 degrees (Average lateral wheel stiffness)

Chris King Classic Road/Cross 32H 130
- 28H Rim ERD = 600mm, CTF = 37.3/17.2, F Ø = 53/53, FTF = 54.5, 9/10/11spd Freehub, 3xDS 3xNDS, 16:12 NDS ratio = 62.6% (Good NDS tension/detension ratio)
- Total Bracing Angle = 7.3 + 3.4 = 10.8 degrees (Average to Good lateral wheel stiffness)
Last edited by KLabs on Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Gregorio
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I have a 16 h bontrager paired spoke hub. I would like to lace it radially to a kinlin xr300. Will this work? And does some one know an easy way to figure out the spoke lengths?

bm0p700f
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you will have to draw in a 3d cad program or something like that or do some maths.

KLabs
Posts: 380
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Gregorio wrote:I have a 16 h bontrager paired spoke hub. I would like to lace it radially to a kinlin xr300. Will this work? And does some one know an easy way to figure out the spoke lengths?

Hi Gregorio, you can use these spoke calculators ... http://www.sapim.be/spoke-calculator ... http://lenni.info/edd/ ... http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/fullcalc

Mackers
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None of those can help with paired spokes.

Check out Spocalc instead, but be prepared to do your own measurements.

ETA: your hub may even be in the Spocalc database.

WinterRider
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bm0p700f wrote: That is vaild read my bloody post.

And I did..go back and reread it. My apologies.. I miss read it. Sorry for my error.

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am
Hi All, what do you think of the Hybrid crows foot lacing ... ie. 3 spokes where each outer heads in spoke cross an a center heads in Radial spoke ... thanks

LouisN
Posts: 2290
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
I have to cut 3 mm's on some DT revolution spokes. Is there enough 2.0 mm diameter left to thread them ?

I think so, but not shure...

Louis

KWalker
Posts: 5827
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Location: Bay Area
Trying to maybe rebuild my wheels into something lighter/snappier.

What I have now:
Chris King R45s
Hed Belgians
Sapim Race 28/32
Weight: 1795 grams
This wheelset is stiff as hell, durable, and has had 0 issues over the past year of use including on roads that were more suited for a mountain bike.

Ideally I would like to use the same hubs. Alpha 340s would go well in 28/32 it seems, but I would like to sort out the spokes and build. Any advice for a somewhat lighter, but stiff spoke since I will need them anyways? I was thinking either Sapim CXs or maybe DT Revolutions. I've used CX-Rays with this kind of build before, but found it to be a bit too flexy. Currently have brass nipples, no preference on switching to alloy or anything.

Any opinions or advice on this build? Right now I'm 2x all the way around so I'm guessing that'd be the build for this as well unless someone has suggestions. By my calculations I am saving 150g in rim weight, and ~80g in spoke weight so it would bring the weight down from 1795 to 1560 or so, which is pretty light.
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
Gramz
Failed Custom Bike

bm0p700f
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Use of alloy nipples will save 40g in that spoke cont over brass. I have been using Sapim alloy nipples for a few thousand miles now with no issues yet so try them. Also you could se Sapim Laser spokes Front and NDS rear with race spokes DS rear. This wil retain stiffnes on the rear wheel and save weight. Lace the rear 3x as it a 32 spoke build.

KLabs
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am
Hi KWalker, if you use the current wheels w/o rim change ... exactly what bm0p700f said ... laser or cxRay NDS rear and front w/ alloy nipples
What spoke lacing pattern do these wheels currently have ...

Rebuild with Stans Alpha 340 rims, then ...

Rear ... CK R45 32H 8/9/10spd hub, 130mm OLD, flange Ø = 51mm/51mm, CTF = 18.9mm/34.6mm, spokes = laser or cxray
Stans Alpha 340 32H rims ERD = 591mm
- 2xDS 2xNDS ... (good torque control)
-- NDS ratio = 55% ... (acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio)
-- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 3.9 = 11.0 degrees (good lateral wheel stiffness)

- 2xDS 3xNDS ... (good to very good torque control)
-- NDS ratio = 55% plus a little bit ... (acceptable NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio) ... this means that the NDS spoke tension is a little higher for the same DS spoke tension
-- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 3.8 = 10.9 degrees (average to good lateral wheel stiffness)

Maybe - Stans Alpha 340 28H rims ERD = 591mm, leave out every 4th NDS spoke (or you could use a 4 x 3 spoke Crows Foot lacing (effectively equivalent to a 2x traditional lacing)
- 2xDS 3xNDS ... (good to very good torque control)
-- NDS ratio = 55% * 16/12 = 73% ... (good to very good NDS spoke tension/detension stiffness ratio - good to very good NDS spoke tension)
-- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 3.9 = 11.0 degrees (good lateral wheel stiffness)
---- A Crows Foot lacing will improve the NDS Bracing Angle because 2 of the 3 spokes are heads in. Also this can be further improved by using a completely heads in Crows Foot lacing

- OR

-- NDS - you could use a 2 x 5 spoke Crows Foot lacing (with the 2 radial spokes heads out, the others heads in, and its a very clever 0x/2x/3x arrangement), plus 2 heads in radial spokes
---- Total Bracing Angle = 7.1 + 4.0 = 11.1 degrees (good lateral wheel stiffness)
---- Should build a very strong, stiff, and light rear wheel (nearly as light as your 28H front wheel and would look pretty unique and interesting)

-- DS - not sure if there is enough room between the spoke head and cassette, but you could use a 3 x 5 spoke Crows Foot lacing (with the 2 radial spokes heads out and the others heads in), plus 1 heads in radial spoke (placed opposite to the valve stem)
---- Total Bracing Angle = 7.3 + 4.0 = 11.3 degrees (good to very good lateral wheel stiffness)
---- You could probably use 110kgf (even 100kgf should work and be laterally stiff) DS spoke tension with the 5 spoke Crows Foot DS/NDS lacing arrangement
---- Should build a very strong, very stiff, and light rear wheel (nearly as light as your 28H front wheel, and would look pretty unique and interesting)

Front ... no issue here ... whatever you would like ... 0x 1x 2x will be fine. For road a 28H front is very laterally stiff
-- You could use a 2 x 5 spoke Crows Foot lacing, plus 4 radial spokes ... which would look pretty unique and interesting

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