The wheelbuilding thread

[Zen Cyclery]

@styrrell- Well, you could probably get away with a 20/24 on the Alpha 340, but it is noticeably softer in that low of a spoke count. I've always viewed it as a hoop that really needs to be overbuilt on.

I think the A23 is a bit more practical though. Quite a bit stiffer than the Stans, and the OC drilling in the rear can give you a solid NDS offset.

[styrrell]

Thanks, I appreciate the advice. Any comments on the silver vs polished version of the A23s? The pics I've seen onlinedon't show much difference, but its pretty difficult for pics to really show much.

The bike is bare Ti with very little carbon, just the enve fork, sram red levers / RD and seat. I bit of bling wouldn't hurt it any

[Zen Cyclery]

I'd go with the polished rim. The silver frankly looks cheap and somewhat low quality. Polished or black is the ticket.

[bm0p700f]

You would be more than fine with a 24/28 spoke on the Alpah 340's, Kinlin XR200 however using the same spoke count on a A23 rim will be more durable. For the sake of 40g which is what 8 CX-rays with alloy nipples weighs I really don't see the point in sacifising durability for 40g.

[KLabs]

Hey Peoples, what are your opinions on spoke tieing re wheel stiffnes, strength, and ride ... thanks

[Zen Cyclery]

@KLabs- The only thing that I've noticed with tied spokes is how difficult it is to replace a broken one. As far as rigidity goes, there is no real world difference, at least these days.

[eric]

With tied & soldered spokes, a broken spoke will stay in place and not jam in the frame or otherwise do something dangerous. So you can keep riding until you can get a wheel off the team car. That's the only advantage I can see.

[KLabs]

@KLabs- The only thing that I've noticed with tied spokes is how difficult it is to replace a broken one. As far as rigidity goes, there is no real world difference, at least these days.

With tied & soldered spokes, a broken spoke will stay in place and not jam in the frame or otherwise do something dangerous. So you can keep riding until you can get a wheel off the team car. That's the only advantage I can see.

Hi Zen Cyclery and eric, what about if only done on the NDS when the NDS tension where it is low (about 44%) ...

I have seen a rear wheel that uses plastic spoke ties (neat idea) ... http://velostage.com/pro-lite-bracciano-review/ ... just page down a little (I can't get the img to work) ... [img ... how to add an image .../img]

Hmm ... yes, when the wheel is static (no torque, lateral, radial forces are being applied ... not riding) spoke ties don't do anything to address spoke tension or stiffen the wheel.

... but when torque, lateral, radial forces are applied (dynamically - while riding) this is when the mechanics of the spoke tie may have an effect on each spokes tension/detension cycle. For example, while one spoke is pulling and the other spoke is pushing (one spoke is in tension while the other spoke is in detension), and because these two spokes are tied, the 2 spokes should assist each other during each spokes tension/detension cycle. If this is the case then each NDS spokes tension (while riding - sprinting/climbing) should remain tensioned even during the detension cycle (ie. closer to static tension)

Nonetheless, even if the spoke tieing does do this for a 2xNDS, a 3xNDS would still control torque effects better, improve the static NDS spoke tension, and make the wheel a little more compliant (give a better ride) ... now, if the previous analogy is correct then what would be the effect with 3xNDS and 2 spokes tied

What do you think ... sound reasonable

[thisisatest]

Spokes are still able to move, as they are only held together with the wire. Solder does nothing but keep the wire from unraveling. It's been tested for lateral and torsional stiffness (and probably radial too), there is simply no benefit. The fact that there is no real benefit to interlacing, we still do it bc that's the way it's always been done, supports the notion as well.

[KLabs]

Spokes are still able to move, as they are only held together with the wire. Solder does nothing but keep the wire from unraveling. It's been tested for lateral and torsional stiffness (and probably radial too), there is simply no benefit. The fact that there is no real benefit to interlacing, we still do it bc that's the way it's always been done, supports the notion as well.

Hi thisisatest, yes if the spokes can still move then they are not tied (and interlacing and spoke stiffness would be more effective), but what about these spoke braces (spoke ties - no soldering) used on these wheels ... http://velostage.com/pro-lite-bracciano-review/

[kavitator]

What do you have experience with powertap hub and assimetric drilled rims?

I get excellent tension on FRM388 26" tubeless, 32 cx ray (3xcross both sides), cyclops powertap pro disc barke.

Tension is cca 120kg on DS and cca 80kg on NDS

cheers

[WinterRider]

.[/b] The fact that there is no real benefit to interlacing, .

Bold mine.

Does not the interlaced spoke keep the head of the partnered spoke from lifting away from the rim under conditions of compresssion? Thus preventing.. to some degree.. the head slap of rapid retension.. meaning less elbow strain?

[bm0p700f]

I really do think winter rider and Klabs your are over analysing the wheel to true and create some sort of perfect wheel. I don't it exisits.

I was having a converastion today with a chap phoned who maintains that tie and soldering works to stiffen a wheel. I tried explaining to him it does not have the effect he thinks bt he did not believe me. Believe what you want but if you want to know build some sample wheels and test against control wheels. I think tie and soldering a wheel is a waste of time as wheels even with 44% tension balance seem reliable enough (I ride wheels like these). I also cannot see how the tie can make a spoke stiffer. If it has an effect it will be small and the effect maybe lost in the scatter.

[bm0p700f]

I do think Klabs and winter rider you are over analysing a wheel some what.

I am not aware of any data that has looked tied and solder wheels with respect to spoke fatigue. I strongly suspect there may not be the advantages you might think as the spoke head from winter rider last post may not be able to move much anyway depending on the hub spoke combination.

If your wheels have spoke breaking regulally then the problem can be fixed quite simply by choosing a more appropriate rim, hub spoke combination without having to resort to techniqes that have been debunked to a large extent.

[eric]

... but when torque, lateral, radial forces are applied (dynamically - while riding) this is when the mechanics of the spoke tie may have an effect on each spokes tension/detension cycle. For example, while one spoke is pulling and the other spoke is pushing (one spoke is in tension while the other spoke is in detension), and because these two spokes are tied, the 2 spokes should assist each other during each spokes tension/detension cycle. If this is the case then each NDS spokes tension (while riding - sprinting/climbing) should remain tensioned even during the detension cycle (ie. closer to static tension)

I don't think that the torque on the spokes has that much effect on their tension. That's just my feeling, not backed up by measurements or someone's study. But the tforce is split among all the pulling spokes of the wheel. While only the spokes where the wheel touches the ground are detensioned due to the rim flattening out. OTOH when I break spokes it is usually when I am standing and putting out power, like starting an interval. That may have more to due with me rocking the bike and flexing the wheel laterally.

I did find a post from Jobst about static lateral stiffness with tied & soldered spokes where he found no difference:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/whee ... ldered.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;