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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:50 pm 
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KLabs I've run the numbers on a 28H with a 32.. not enough increase in NDS tensions. 50 going to 60
is about the norm.

As I noted.. the 18-10 is just an experiment.. thinking IF a spoke broke the wheel likely is still serviceable vs a 24 under the same circumstances. Mine is laced NDS radial inbound... 3x DS. Most would want outbound NDS.. this another 'lets see' trial. Bracing angle suffers some I guess.. I don't stand on the petals with power anyway.. not an issue for me.


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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:50 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Hi WinterRider, what application are you using to run the numbers :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Edit: Yes.. my numbers are off.

Assuming.. a 50% NDS tension with DS at 120.. left side average would run 80 kgf.

I get the ratio side to side ratio via Edd Spoke Calculator. Sum the DS tension, multiple by the percentage the calc sez and then divide by the number of spokes. To date.. this has worked work checking finished wheels.

If.. the varied lacing of a 16-12 is worth the trouble.. that's up to the builder.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:53 pm 
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Posts: 544
Location: Sitting over the center of the Earth.
I'm looking to build a new tubular wheelset, which will be a first since last riding tubulars almost 20 years ago.

My max weight is 180lbs (81.65kg) and my fit weight when I can actually crank out a little bit of power is 172lbs (78kg). Not racing, just spirited riding on poor roads at worst during fair weather. I'm generally not harsh on my equipment.

Any comments on this build:

HED C2 tubular 20h/24h
BHS SLF85W 20h laced radial PCD: 31mm C to F: 39.375mm
BHS SL218 24h 16:8 laced 1x NDS (heads-in) 3x DS
Driveside PCD: 49.6mm
Non-Driveside PCD: 38mm
Hole Diamter: 2.6mm
Left (NDS) Flange-to-Center: 37.3mm
Right (DS) Flange-to-Center: 17.1mm
CX-Rays spokes all around. 14mm alloy nipples.
spoke lengths: 281mm front, 283mm NDS, 285mm DS (as calculated by DTSwiss tool, I'd be using 282,284 and 286mm length spokes if I can't get them cut to odd lengths).

Is 20h/24h ok for my weight?
Would using CX-speed spokes on the NDS be worth doing to increase lateral stiffness?
Would using a regular BHS SL218 24h laced 2x NDS and 1x DS (heads-in) be better?

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:39 pm 
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Posts: 2978
Location: eh?
A question: is the Bontrager FCC (Fisher Control Column) front hub worth building into anything decent? That is the 20 hole front hub with the super tall flanges and 25 mm clamping area. I ask because I would like to replace the rim with something 23 mm wide (Archetype or maybe the Kinlin 279 - whichever is stronger). I was wondering if the hub quality was worth the effort. Also the darn thing does not fit most forks so i'd like to use it on my Trek Cronus.

Also any spoke suggestions? The spokes the wheel comes with are big steel bladed. I was thinking DT Comps might work.

Here is a pic: http://www.bikeradar.com/gallery/article/trek-gary-fisher-collection-cronus-cx-first-look-28907/7/"%20onclick="window.open(this.href)

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wheelsONfire wrote:
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:18 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Velo scaper. If you came into my shop asking about this build I wold be advising 24H/28H build as it will be more durable. I am the same weight. I would only ride a 20/24 spoked wheelset if some deep rims were used and then I would be relcutant to use them all time.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:51 am 
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Posts: 2196
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Veloscraper- 20/24 might be ok if those rims are stiff and you are not hard on wheels. I weigh 35 lbs less and use 20/24 on my race wheels.

I think the stiffer spokes should go on the DS.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:19 am 
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WinterRider wrote:
Edit: Yes.. my numbers are off.
Assuming.. a 50% NDS tension with DS at 120.. left side average would run 80 kgf.
I get the ratio side to side ratio via Edd Spoke Calculator. Sum the DS tension, multiple by the percentage the calc sez and then divide by the number of spokes. To date.. this has worked work checking finished wheels.
If.. the varied lacing of a 16-12 is worth the trouble.. that's up to the builder.

Hi WinterRider, that's excellent and actually with a 16:12 32H hub/28H rim you could simply do a 3xDS 3xNDS, because the NDS flange is smaller ... what do you think :)
I also have another idea in mind, which I shall investigate further before telling you about it :)

I will have a look at OC rims for pros and cons ... my impression is that DS/NDS lateral forces will not be treated equally which I am not sure is an issue or not. Also, radial forces on each edge of the rim will not be treated equally ...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:14 am 
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Posts: 380
Off Centre Rims (OCRs)

Pros - Good DS Bracing Angle, even DS/NDS spoke tensions

Cons - issues with cracking around the DS eyelets (possibly due to inadequate spoke counts or too high DS spoke tension), issues with cracking on the DS rim surface (due to lateral/radial forces), DS is weaker when handling lateral forces, OCRs cracking before they need to be replaced due to rim brake wear

OC rims - Velocity Aerohead/Synergy OCR, Ritchey OCR, Interloc Racing Design Cadence OCR

It would appear that deeper V/U and wider rims, >=27mm deep and >=21mm wide (especially >=23mm wide), has replaced the need for OC rims, and asymmetric box style rims are used for <25mm deep rims ...

The 2:1 (14:7 triplet, 16:8, 18:9, 20:10) spoke pattern has further reduced the need for OC rims
... and a 16:12 32H hub 28H rim may completely remove the need for an OCR and may remove the need for a 2:1 (16:8) hub :)
... there is also a 16:10, 12:10, etc :)

What do you think :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Triplets which result in odd numbered NDS counts means radial lacing.. which most of the hub manufacturers advise against. So recently I'm looking at 1x lacing with 16H flanges to reduce flange strain... one route skipping holes (16H flanges) to reduce departure angle off the flange.

My use of the triplet concept would be limited to components easily available. The current road rear spacing of 130 is going away soon.. given the increase in rear cog counts. In my world that makes no sense.. but sells.

OCR's... I wonder how prevalent that cracking is? In this age of the internet 'squeaky wheels' are heard
around the globe. A low percentage incidence problem gets magnified especially given the concept is 'different'.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Posts: 167
Looking to pull the trigger on some light clinchers.

20/24 dati hubs, CXray, a23 rims with the rear off center. 160 pound will be used for normal roads.

Anyone have a similar build or some advice. I'm not sure about the rims, looking throuh this thread I get the impressin that they are a great choice, or not suitible. Also thought of Stans or Kinlin, but couldn't get a good idea if either would make a stronger wheel at the same weight.

As an aside I like that all the parts can be had in silver but I could use black if it was stronger/lighter.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Posts: 2978
Location: eh?
styrell, at your weight IMO you need more spokes with that rim. I run the A23 at 28/32 and I would not go with less (but I weight 30 lbs more than you.)

Another alternative would be the H-Plus Son Archetype. It's stronger and can probably handle a lower spoke count (although it weighs more).

_________________
wheelsONfire wrote:
When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Location: McCall, ID
I think Mr. Gibs suggestion of the Archetype is a good one. The A23 OC is a solid rim, but from a quality standpoint, I would give it an above average type of score. The finish on the Archetype on the other hand is easily a similar quality to the C2 from Hed.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:21 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
A 28 spoke rear with the A23 should be fine at 160lbs. So yes more spoke and use 24 on the front. The archetype would be a good choice as well bt I would still build 24/28 for some one like yourself.

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Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:21 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Thanks, I wish the new Pacenti came in silver. One final query. At 160 I'm not superlight but not heavy. In this thread I've seen quite few light aluminum rimmed build than what I'm proposing, and both stans and AC sell al rimmed wheels with lighter rims than the A23 or Archetype, using less spokes than 28/24.

Are those rims so much better designed that they can get away with it or are the wheels less strong than you would recommend?

I'm leaning toward A23, 28/24 seems like it should be pretty light and decently durable, but their are lots much lighter wheels bandied about in this thread.


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