I'll check to that.. given your experience. And it's the prevailing view on this thread it seems.

I'll hold out.. in one regard. Heavy usage.. hard impacts.. I suspect spoke tension becomes an issue per radial stiffness. I consider kgf per unit of area for the rim as another. More simply stated: total of the kgf for all the spokes vs the actual area of the rim size. How valid that is... I've not a clue.

As time permits.. I'll continue to go back and review this thread. Definitely the best thread I have found online per the subject.. by many miles/kms. Kudos to all of you contributing.

Pic of the 18-10 is on page 257 of this thread: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74564&p=958089#p958089

36H hub was used. One 'soft' spoke did result.. as there's a sequence of 1-1-1 rather than the 2-1-2.. that spoke is around 90 kgf. Otherwise 120 kgf both sides.

To reiterate: I'm evaluating the triplet per my weight range. How many spokes is enough? Will a 24H work given the spoke and rim up to the task.. at what component weight.

Kgf per unit are is pressue essentially which is stress when applied to solid.

In a hard impact the spoke can go slack and in those circumstances the radial stiffness will drop a bit. Increasing the spoke tension will mean more load is required to make the spokes go slack, it can't increase the stiffness of a wheel though. That is entirely determined in a tensioned wheel by the lenght of the spokes and the stiffness of the components. Those material properties are not effect by tension.

All pre stressed system are "stronger" than unstressed one think of heat treated shatter proof glass. The heat treatment put the surface in compression therefore a higher bending load is required to break the glass. The material properties of the glass are the same (or nearly the same) but the pre tension is the bit that gives it its toughness.

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I was to date thinking of the rim as a tensioned system vs the actual relative stiffness of the rim as a component. Your rating the rim as an individual unit.. I get that now.

I made an erroneous assumption earlier.. equating spoke deflection as measured by the Park tool to a kgf level. In truth.. thinner spokes just achieve those kgf levels with less measured deflection. So if your only 50% NDS your kgf level does not increase just by adding lighter gauge spokes. I'm back to my original view of NDS light butted spokes: saves weight, lessens elbow strain via the mid section absorbing re-tensioning shock.. yet reduces lateral stiffness.

So I'll continue to refine my ideas for the triplet... for heavier loads: geared to lightest practical rear.

NDS's under low tension make no sense to me.

NDS spokes under low tension work though. On my winter bike on awfull suffolk roads has NDS spoke (lasers) tension in the region of 480N (maybe a tad less), no spoke freeze and alloy nipples. So far after 6 months of riding I have not had to touch these wheels. I do 70-100 miles a week on them.

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Yes they will work fine at lower wts.. and good builds. My winter bike is 26" MTB so NDS tension is a better ratio.. no problems. I break spokes but that bike is the 'recycle bin'... misc used spokes & parts etc... sacrificed to the salt season. The bike while a green color appears white some days. My mileage is about same too.

Just.. breaking a NDS spoke many miles from home with a DOA cell battery.... got me to TRIPLET's...

Thinner spokes achieve the same tension with more deflection (edit: more deflection of the SPOKE). On the park tool, a lower number is more deflection, up to the point where the tool is completely relaxed and forcing the spoke to a greater bend. That, and the thinner spoke takes up less room in the tensiometer itself.

Hello guys,

I am looking for a new rim to build into a front wheel.
I already have spokes, nipples and hub from a wheel which is now bent so I need a new rim.
The ERD of that was 604mm. What variance have I got from this number?
can anybody give me suggestions on a rim to use, preferably 23mm wide, stiff, strong, light and relatively cheap.

I'm in the uk let me know what my options are

Looking to build a budget light clincher wheelset. Great thread but I've waded through it and have a hard time keeping some stuff straight, so two questions

I've seen here that Dati rear hubs have a short center to DS measurement, but a drawing on a ebay listing shows it at 19. 19 seems pretty wide, can anyone confirm if this is correct or is Dati fudging things to make the hub look better?

2nd, on a 24 hole rear, can the DS spokes be laced heads in/cross 2 for more stiffness, or can this cause problems?

I had wheelset on rims kinlin xr200, Bitex hub, 28 spokes rear (DS 3x race, NDS radial laser).
tension was on DS around 120kg (parktool TS) - test rider (almost elite racer) noticed wheel is not very stiff (rubb in barekpads) - i put more tension on spokes (around 140kg on DS- parktool TS).
Wheel was noticebly stiffer-
So high spoke tension is need if powerfull rider wants the best from wheel.
But 140kg is too much for aluminium - it was test wheelset (and after 8.000km is still ok)

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click this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqfFdCWAH5I&list=UUEtgd6K9EDGmoSE2YYipQgQ&index=20

Hi kavitator, yes spoke tension (as does bracing angle and rim width) affects lateral stiffness (ie in preventing brake rub), and rim strength (not spoke tension) determines radial stiffness (ie as bm0p700f has indicated), and spoke crossings affect torque stiffness (ie 2x/3x/4x are good for pedal and disc brake torque effects while 0x/1x are not good) ...

Hey kavitator, using 140kg (8000kms and still ok) were you expecting rim and/or hub flange cracking/failure, or even spoke fatigue/failure issues ...

A quick spoke question. Any opinions about Pillar X-TRA 1422 vs CX Rays? Quality, weight, aero, etc?

Hi styrrell, have a look at kavitator and Eric posts regarding spokes ... http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74564&start=3750, etc ...

Some posters are using MAC 424/360 spokes and Sapim now have a super spoke.

According to Damon Rinard's tests (http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm) spoke tension doesn't affect lateral stiffness unless the spokes are loose enough that they become slack.

Hi eric, does that mean by kavitator using 140kgf DS (28H hub/rim 3xDS race, 0xNDS laser) that he was able to improve NDS tension which would have allowed for the apparent improvement in lateral stiffness ... or do you think there is some other reasons ...