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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Winky, there are two things worth mentioning.

First, the rim you posted the diagram of is not the Farsport rims that we've been talking about for the most part, its the new November bicycles rim. They are similar but not necessarily the same.

Second, for optimum aerodynamics, you are best off running a slightly narrower tire than the brake track width. For instance, on the Hed C2 rims, you can run a 20mm tire but a 22mm tire is good. If you run what are labeled 23mm, they often end up too wide.

Here is a graph showing the FC 303 Zipp clincher with different tire widths(which is similar in overall width to the Farsport and November rim):
http://velonews.competitor.com/files/20 ... s-Zipp.png


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Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:44 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:10 pm 
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@blacktalon....is that $550 for the bitex exclusive of shipping, correct?

Would love to get those....look great. Wonder what the lead time is, and what the delay would be for the new year....

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:22 pm 
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winky wrote:
These open mold rims that you guys are posting pictures to aren't just wide, they are extra wide! They are are even wider than the popular HED C2 rims that are 23mm wide and that HED recommends using 23mm tires on.

Check out the CAD images of these rims. The outside width of these rims are 25mm wide. So, for optimum aerodynamics and performance you would have to use a 25mm tire, which is heavier than a 23mm tire. And isn't this place called Weight Weenies?

Image


As noted, there's nothing open mold about this rim - I designed it, we own the mold, and it will only be available through us. There are a lot of subtle things that go into rim design, things that you might not necessarily notice. Often, section drawings of two different rims will be shown and called "similar," where I see nothing but differences.

The aerodynamically optimal tire size is always narrower than the rims with these kind of rim shapes. You're actually using the tire as part of the aerodynamic shape of the rim. As an example, a 404 is aerodynamically optimized for use with a 21mm tire. A big part of the reason we designed this rim as we did was to make it perform exceptionally well - aerodynamically, cornering, and ride comfort-wise - on 23mm tires. We've found that 23mm tires on wide (~ 18mm inside width) rims give the ride feel that attracts people to 25s, but they corner better and have aerodynamic advantages. 23s are also lighter and more readily available in more styles/colors/treads/etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:33 pm 
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btompkins0112 wrote:
@blacktalon....is that $550 for the bitex exclusive of shipping, correct?

Would love to get those....look great. Wonder what the lead time is, and what the delay would be for the new year....



The quotes were exclusive of shipping, as that cost depends on where you are geographically. I think it was $70 to the USA/Canada (North America Region).

As for lead time... I've seen some threads saying that the workers should begin showing up on or around the 17th of this month, considering Chinese Year year was on Sunday Feb 10th.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:45 am 
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^^^The first day back from Chinese New year is the 18th. It will take a day or so for everything to get back up to speed and there will be a considerable shipping backlog as well. Things should be back to normal by the 25th.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:33 am 
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@blacktalon - I didn't post the picture of the rims I commented on. I quoted and commented on the picture from another poster.

I have no idea how FarSports makes their rims. The ones in the photos you posted look nicely finished and VERY different fom the photos I commented on.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:47 am 
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BobDopolina wrote:
@blacktalon - I didn't post the picture of the rims I commented on. I quoted and commented on the picture from another poster.

I have no idea how FarSports makes their rims. The ones in the photos you posted look nicely finished and VERY different fom the photos I commented on.



Indeed. The pictures you commented on were posted by me and were pictures sent to me by Focus Carbon. I had to agree with you that they looked truly "rough".


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:05 am 
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FarSports makes some damn nice rims and wheels. The finish quality has been great, the packaging clean (and reusable!), and delivery fairly quick.

They had rough beginnings/products a few years ago, but since then the improvement has been significant. Customer service has been vastly improved, they've upped their product lines, build offerings, and kept the prices reasonable. For those on a budget, I have no hesitation in recommending them as a viable, dependable, option when considering wheels.

This whole thread has had some great contributions to new options beyond the major manufacturers (ZIPP, ENVE, HED, etc)
November has some great offerings
Soul has some new shapes
Boyd Wheels has some new shapes too
FarSports has new shapes (and more on the way)

All exciting stuff.

All we need now is a 3rd party (meaning not a magazine, website nor blog) , non-biased and well designed test between all of these options, including the major manufacturers. That would be something!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:06 am 
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NovemberDave wrote:

Image

As noted, there's nothing open mold about this rim - I designed it, we own the mold, and it will only be available through us. There are a lot of subtle things that go into rim design, things that you might not necessarily notice. Often, section drawings of two different rims will be shown and called "similar," where I see nothing but differences.

The aerodynamically optimal tire size is always narrower than the rims with these kind of rim shapes. You're actually using the tire as part of the aerodynamic shape of the rim. As an example, a 404 is aerodynamically optimized for use with a 21mm tire. A big part of the reason we designed this rim as we did was to make it perform exceptionally well - aerodynamically, cornering, and ride comfort-wise - on 23mm tires. We've found that 23mm tires on wide (~ 18mm inside width) rims give the ride feel that attracts people to 25s, but they corner better and have aerodynamic advantages. 23s are also lighter and more readily available in more styles/colors/treads/etc.



Yeah, but just because you own it doesn't mean it isn't an open mold. I mean, it's a nice rim and all, but the Chinese factory probably made like one thing a hair different than a bunch of other rims that leave their factory. After all, it is a Chinese made rim, correct?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:09 am 
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Location: BC, Canada
Prendrefeu,
I noticed your comment that Farsports has more new shapes on the way... do you have a hint as to what might be in the works? I'm curious about ordering a pair of 38mm wide rims (apparently they have a cyclocross version, it isn't listed (?!), but they indicated it's more v than u shaped), and I just don't want to be kicking myself if I find out they have a new "u" shaped one coming out a month after I order...
Thanks,


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:28 pm 
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I understand that worry!

Smart mentioned that they are working on a 38mm U-shape (the new shape), but did not give any hint to me about when they would be available, only that they're first looking at the 50mm U-Shape success/sales first and going from there.

So, I have no idea. :noidea:
That's a tough decision. Maybe ask them and they'll have a newer answer? I asked just over a month ago, and things may have developed since then.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:05 pm 
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winky wrote:
Yeah, but just because you own it doesn't mean it isn't an open mold. I mean, it's a nice rim and all, but the Chinese factory probably made like one thing a hair different than a bunch of other rims that leave their factory. After all, it is a Chinese made rim, correct?


No, not at all, we own it, it is not an open mold. We are the only ones who can get rims out of this mold. This is a contract manufacturing arrangement, not an open mold. You can not go up to whatever factory builds the Tarmac that you like and say "I'll take 100 Tarmacs please," and you can not go up to the factory building the Rail rims and say "I'd like 100 Rail rims, please." I mean, you could say that, but they wouldn't sell you the rims anyway. This is not a co-developed thing where the rims will be on the open market in 6 months or a year or whatever, it is ours and only ours, permanently.

It's not a Chinese factory, it's a Taiwanese factory, and they had no input in the (edit) shape (end edit) design. We had a prototype built (by a company that makes prototypes, not by a rim company) and tested, and then when those results turned out great we gave the drawing to the rim manufacturer for them to make a mold and start producing rims. The open mold wide rims that our manufacturer is producing look nothing like our Rail rims. Probably redundant to say they are Taiwanese rims and not Chinese rims, but they are Taiwanese rims and not Chinese rims.

You can read more about the design process in a blog I wrote here:http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/2013/1/2/a-blank-sheet-of-paper.html The title of that blog is very significant - we started from a blank sheet of paper. The spoke bed shape, the point along the chord at which maximum width occurs, the tapering of maximum width into the brake track, the transition shape from the spoke bed shape to maximum width - we designed all of it, and none of it was haphazard. Where you see things that are "a hair" different, I see things that look very much different.

You don't even have to take my word on it, though. We've designed a mark into the mold, so that you can easily distinguish a Rail rim from any other rim that might look similar to it ("similar" being subject to interpretation, of course).

We have a bunch of testing under our belts with the Rail (primarily wind tunnel testing) and will continue to test the for heat resistance, strength, impact resistance, and ride quality. People who buy Rails will know that the rims in their wheels, and their wheels as a system, have undergone all of these tests, and wherever possible will have hard data on the results of those tests. Unless it comes from us*, don't kid yourself - it's not a Rail and none of our testing is relevant to what you've got.

It's one thing to say "everyone wants wide rims, we'd better make something QUICK!" and quite another to begin from the ground up as we did. I would guess that we are the only ones who started from the fixed point of inside brake track width and worked from there, for example. We carefully considered AoA (often called "yaw") distribution in determining the shape of the rim's spoke bed and point of maximum width. We worked around a weight target that takes into account the less structurally stable shape that we were after (hang a weight from the bottom of a "U" and what does it turn into? A "V"! That's going to be something a lot of people are discussing on the forums before too long). Basically, we tried to identify each and every parameter that went into the rim and consciously address it both on its own and as part of the greater rim and wheel system. I would politely say that I don't believe that all of the flurry of new shapes arriving have been part of such a process.

*We do plan to have partners around the world who will be authorized to build and sell wheels with Rail rims. We are very far along with one. Rail rims will only be available in built wheels.

Sorry for running long.

**Edited - the producer developed the laminate schedule to which they are building our design. They are experts at carbon manufacturing, and will have to warranty their work, so it makes sense that they should be fully involved in that end. They had nothing to do with external shape design though.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:12 pm 
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winky wrote:
Yeah, but just because you own it doesn't mean it isn't an open mold. I mean, it's a nice rim and all, but the Chinese factory probably made like one thing a hair different than a bunch of other rims that leave their factory. After all, it is a Chinese made rim, correct?


Seriously?

Owning the mold is the exact definition of it NOT being an open mold rim.

When tossing around jargon it's usually best to have a least some idea as to what the jargon actually means...smilie face or roll of eyes...take your pick.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:19 pm 
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^
^
Ha! I was thinking the same thing. Like, "just because something is blue doesn't mean it isn't red".
The thing about pulling the U into a V, I understand that that is the reason there is no 202 firecrest tubular...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:08 pm 
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@thisisatest, until you posted I was oblivious to the fact that the 202 tubular is a narrower shape -- checked out the Zipp site and sure enough, only 22.56mm at the brake track and only .05mm difference between brake track and widest point. The Firecrest 202 clincher is 24.6mm at the track and .8mm wider at the bulge.

Not sure I understand the comment about pulling Us into Vs or vice versa....?


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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:08 pm 


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