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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:06 am 
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bm0p700f wrote:
... Personally for training wheels more spokes the better and 24F/28R wheels using a kinlin XR-270 rim would meet that intended use well for you. I can't remember what your intended use is. If your roads are crap then more spokes is better.

Hi bm0p700f, when you refer to crap roads and more spokes, is that for torsional stiffness and strength, or/and lateral and radial stiffness/strength ... thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:10 am 
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Radial stiffness for aluminium alloy rims and steel spokes is not dependent on spoke count. Edit actually it does a bit. That is why for low spoke count wheels (20F/24R or less) very stiff rims are needed so that radial deformation does not lead to a significant spoke tension drop. The extension of a NDS Spaim Laser spoke with 1.5mm diameter is on the order of 0.4-0.5mm. Given radial wheelstiffness is generally not much more than 4000N/mm except perhaps for the stiffest deep rims. 2000N of radial loading is possible on various lumps and bumps and would [nearly] unload the NDS spokes.

Edit * thicker spokes does increase radial wheel stiffness maybe by enough to account for increase in spoke life that you would expect. The reason being the value for rim stiffness are higher than I thought. More spokes if there enough so more than one is being unloaded (in low spoke count wheels though this may not be the case) should also have the same effect as two spokes in parallel are like two springs twice the stiffness.

Radial wheel stiffnes = radial rim stiffness/(1+ (rim stiffness/spoke stiffness)) I hope you can see from this if spoke stiffness rises the bottom term in brackets (rim stiffness/spoke stiffness) reduce in size so the bottom term tends to 1.

Lateral stiffnes goes up of course with more spokes and there must be alot of side loading on a wheel on uneven and holed surfaces like the roads of Suffolk and Essex. It's that lateral loading combined with the radial loading that does spokes in.

To make a 20F/24R spoked wheel work for everyday use I think you need a rim that is even stiffer (and therefore heavier) than the XR-270. The more radial stiffness a rim has the more lateral stiffnes it has as well, the two work together to make low spoke count wheels work.

The Kinlin XR380 fits into the catagory of a stiffer rim so does the DT RR585. I have built up a set of XR-380's yesterday that weighed 1646g. The customer want these not as everday wheels though.

Currently I am up with baby daughter she does not want to sleep, she is finally going off.

Now it edited I hope that answers the question. really what is needed are some strain gauges on wheels of different spoke count and rim types and gather some hard numbers. I would love to do that.

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Last edited by bm0p700f on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:10 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:59 am 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
XR-380 is really stiff - a wheelset on 16(front radial)/18(rear 2:1) cx rays is used sucsesfully for training some 1000km for now

bm0p700f did you try spuerspokes for NDS? or Lasers are enough elastic

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:28 am 
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I am goin to edit my above post today to try and make it more accurate as there a number of things about the explaination that I am not happy with. Edit post above edited now so please re read if you have done so already.

Kavitor I just CX-rays all over. The wheel seems stiff enough and given the 24 psoke count on the rear and the chaps lowish wirght I do not forsee a problem.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Thanks bm0p700f, really appreciated :-) ... have I got this right, to summarize, the most important aspects of a rear wheel build (or any wheel build) are ...

1. Rim stiffness/strength (radially and laterally)
2. Spoke bracing angle which is improved by using shorter spokes (radial lacing), HeadsIn lacing (radial or 1x lacing), large DS hub flange diameter, and rim depth
3. Strong/Stiff hubs that do not have hub windup and have excellent flange strength (to support radial lacing).
4. A stiff hubs NDS can be laced to handle all torque effects although it is better if DS/NDS handle torque effects
5. Sufficient spoke number and spoke tension to handle the expected lateral loading (and to a lesser extent radial/torsional loading) that the wheel will endure
6. Sufficient spoke crossings to handle a hubs torsional loading (pedaling and disc brakes)
7. Spokes that depart a hub tangentially (or within 30 degrees) produce a smaller spoke tension/detension cycle due to torque ... generally 2x is sufficient
8. Radial lacing doesn't transfer torque well and requires very strong hub flanges due to the spokes perpendicular hub departure


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:32 pm 
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KLabs wrote:
8. Radial lacing doesn't transfer torque well and requires very strong hub flanges due to the spokes perpendicular hub departure


I've been looking online for a list/summary of rear hubs that allow radial lacing.. w/o any luck.
Anyone have a link or can other experiences with radial lacing NDS rear FH's?

Contacting White Industries.. brought the response 2x rear was the least cross they'd recommend. My interest there per the chro-moly axle use.. I require a strong rear axle per weight.. 235 lbs.

EDIT: I've noted later in this thread the Chris King R45 states radial for that hub... advising at least 1x DS.


Last edited by WinterRider on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Klabs that list is just about it I think, unless I forgot something you missed.

Those XR-380 wheels well they are just black and I like that. Using lighter hubs a little more weight could be shaved of but not too much. They are 1646g and a 20F/24R spoke count. The one thing about Kinlins you do get builds with very even tension and very high tolerances, not bad for cheaper rims.
Image

I am struggling to think of a hubs that rated for radial lacing on the rear. The Miche RG2 or Primtao in 24H drilling while not rated for radial rear lacing will probably cope as the rear flanges are the same as the front (same material I think and certainly the same thickness and it is thick) and front will do radial lacing. However the rear is 290g and most places only sell them in pairs. I buy them seperatley through an alternative source (miche UK agent) than the usual distributors.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:23 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Klabs that list is just about it I think, unless I forgot something you missed.

I am struggling to think of a hubs that rated for radial lacing on the rear. The Miche RG2 or Primtao in 24H drilling while not rated for radial rear lacing will probably cope as the rear flanges are the same as the front (same material I think and certainly the same thickness and it is thick) and front will do radial lacing. However the rear is 290g and most places only sell them in pairs. I buy them separately through an alternative source (miche UK agent) than the usual distributors.

Thanks bm0p700f, and I believe the following rear hubs can accept radial lacing Novatec, Bitex (especially the 2:1 hubs @ BHS), the ones mentioned @ Fair Wheel bikes, and probably others like Chosen, etc :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Which novatec there are many. Novatec don't seem to publish which of there hubs are good for radial lacing but they only the front A291 SB for radial lacing and probaly the A291 SB-SL hub as well so that one must be fine.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Hi bm0p700f, have a look at the Novatec F482SB, F482SB-SL, and F482SB-11 and the front hub is A291SB and A291SB-SL ... http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp ...

Haven't you mentioned the F482SB before. Perhaps you can't do DS radial with this hub but I thought that it could :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:57 pm 
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My interest in radial lacing rear FH's stems from my 3 triplet builds to date. First two feature NDS radial heads in... 36H and 24H in 26".

The last not a true triplet I guess.. 28H going 18-10. Came about only as the lightly used rim (Kinlin generic I believe.. low 400's grs) and new Shimano hub (lower end) were sitting here. IMO the 24H triplet in 700 isn't enough for my weight.. hence this assembly for an experiment/trial. To maximize tension balance I laced it heads out.. tension both side runs in the low 120's kgf range... fairly evenly balanced around the wheel.

I find the triplet concept interesting... time will tell riding though how practical it is at my weight level. Has added a good deal of interest for me building.. chasing our winter AWAY.. :beerchug:

Sapim Strong spokes btw. Not WW.. but suit this trial I thought.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:13 pm 
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WinterRider wrote:
My interest in radial lacing rear FH's stems from my 3 triplet builds to date. First two feature NDS radial heads in... 36H and 24H in 26".

The last not a true triplet I guess.. 28H going 18-10. Came about only as the lightly used rim (Kinlin generic I believe.. low 400's grs) and new Shimano hub (lower end) were sitting here. IMO the 24H triplet in 700 isn't enough for my weight.. hence this assembly for an experiment/trial. To maximize tension balance I laced it heads out.. tension both side runs in the low 120's kgf range... fairly evenly balanced around the wheel.

I find the triplet concept interesting... time will tell riding though how practical it is at my weight level. Has added a good deal of interest for me building.. chasing our winter AWAY.. :beerchug:

Hi WinterRider, did you build to front wheel or did you build a rear wheel or as an experiment did you build a rear wheel (using a FH) with the intent to eventually build a 2:1 (triplet) style rear wheel. Unfortunately, using a FH won't give you a real picture of how the rear wheel will build due to flange spacing, flange diameters, and flange offsets (Dishing) ...
Were all of the NDS spokes of equal length?
What DS lacing did you use?

Ever thought of doing an 18:9 using a 36H hub and rim or even a 20:10 using a 40H hub and rim?
With 10 spokes NDS you could 1x and maybe even 2x ... and still only 30 spokes :-)

Enjoy your experimenting :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Well I have a vento 18:9 hub I have been think what to do with it. May be I should lace it this way to a 36H rim. Perhaps a cheap open pro for an experiment. I don't have a matching front hub for a wheelset though. The hub is heavy as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:15 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Well I have a vento 18:9 hub I have been think what to do with it. May be I should lace it this way to a 36H rim. Perhaps a cheap open pro for an experiment. I don't have a matching front hub for a wheelset though. The hub is heavy as well.

Hey bm0p700f, excellent, do you think you could do the 9 spokes NDS 1x to remove some stress on the NDS flange (is that even a good idea)?
With a 36H rim you would get a triplet appearance (skipping every 4th spoke hole) which would look pretty cool ... :-)


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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:15 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:19 am 
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I would have to some spare time to build it though. Very busy in the shop at the moment, building wheels. I think I give radial NDS a go though as the hub hardly cost me anything and the rim will be cheap so it does not bother me if it fall apart.

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