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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Location: Mårslet, Denmark
KLabs wrote:
Hi Anders are those Reynolds Assault rims 46mm deep? What is the DS flange diameter of the Roval hub ... thanks


Yes they are 46mm. The DS flange diameter is 61mm.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:18 am 
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I'd like to build a wheelset with the new Pacenti SL23 rims. It should be an all-circomstances wheelset (roads in flanders and a few times a year a cobble stone section, but that isn't the real goal of the wheelset).
Given my weight of 60kgs, would a 20/24 build be strong enough?

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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:18 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:36 am 
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Klabs

Radial stiffness is almost entirely dependent on the radial stiffness of the rim (if steel spokes are used) which is why deep v rim are raidally stiff. If alloy or Ti spokes are used this is no longer true and the spokes do change radial stiffness.
High radial stifness allows few spokes to be used as the rim will deform less under load from lumps and bumps so the NDS spokes (as these are under less tension) will be less likely to lose tension. This helps spoke life.

This is a test has explained the benefits of 2:1 lacing with respect to lateral wheel stiffness but it does require a stiffer rim to pull it of as you do end up with fewer spokes unless you have a 27H drim and go for 18:9 lacing but not many rims around like this. For DS lacing on a 2:1 pattern why not use whatever you would use for that number of spokes DS. So for 16:8 then 3x DS would be sensible unless you build 32 pokes wheels 2x.

Wheel builders interlace mainly because it is what we have always done, we like the look and because it does no harm. Factory wheel builders to not because it does no harm and it make building the wheel simpler and that mean more money for them.

As for hub wind up as already said it is not a problem nor is wheel unwind up in general. For 28 spoke wheel I prefer 2x even though the spokes do not exit the hub in tangential way. Tortional stiffness will still be good and lateral stiffness is slightly increased. Also spoke do not cross the flange, I dislike that. Although 3x can work. You can worry about tortional stiffness more on disc brake wheels and then the way you lace will change a bit. Even than many 28 spoke disc brake MTB wheels will be 2x.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:39 am 
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stokie. for rough road regarless of your weight go with more spokes. 28 on the rear at least. front can be 4 spokes less. Also pick a hub that will give a good tension balance like the Shimano DA hubs or use an offset rim on the rear if using somthing with a poorwe tension balance like BHS hubs or Campag record. Campagnolo pretty much make the record hubs in 32H drilling only as they intend them for classic wheel builds for rough road including cobles. I know this is weight weenies but more spokes does not have to mean heavy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:50 am 
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Stokie- body weight is one factor in how well wheels last. Also riding style, both how well you 'float' over obsctacles and how you climb. I'm not much heavier than you but I climb out of the saddle a lot and rock the bike more than most, and that seems to be detrimental to rear wheel life. Although it's prompted me to learn about wheel building so it's not a complete negative.

If you've been having wheel problems before then your proposed build may not be as durable as you would want for all around wheels. If you haven't been breaking spokes or rims then you'd probably be fine with that build, if done with good spokes and by a good wheel builder.

Sorry this is a long way of answering "it depends".


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:55 am 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Klabs

Radial stiffness is almost entirely dependent on the radial stiffness of the rim (if steel spokes are used) which is why deep v rim are raidally stiff. If alloy or Ti spokes are used this is no longer true and the spokes do change radial stiffness.
High radial stifness allows few spokes to be used as the rim will deform less under load from lumps and bumps so the NDS spokes (as these are under less tension) will be less likely to lose tension. This helps spoke life.

This is a test has explained the benefits of 2:1 lacing with respect to lateral wheel stiffness but it does require a stiffer rim to pull it of as you do end up with fewer spokes unless you have a 27H drim and go for 18:9 lacing but not many rims around like this. For DS lacing on a 2:1 pattern why not use whatever you would use for that number of spokes DS. So for 16:8 then 3x DS would be sensible unless you build 32 pokes wheels 2x.

Wheel builders interlace mainly because it is what we have always done, we like the look and because it does no harm. Factory wheel builders to not because it does no harm and it make building the wheel simpler and that mean more money for them.

As for hub wind up as already said it is not a problem nor is wheel unwind up in general. For 28 spoke wheel I prefer 2x even though the spokes do not exit the hub in tangential way. Tortional stiffness will still be good and lateral stiffness is slightly increased. Also spoke do not cross the flange, I dislike that. Although 3x can work. You can worry about tortional stiffness more on disc brake wheels and then the way you lace will change a bit. Even than many 28 spoke disc brake MTB wheels will be 2x.

Thanks bm0p700f, to ask, with 2:1 lacing isn't the small DS bracing angles still an issue for DS lateral stiffness or has this been resolved in other ways (deeper/stiffer rims and larger DS flange to improve DS bracing angle, etc) ... thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:55 am 
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2:1 lacing does not affect DS bracing angle at least that is what spoc calc tells me. You do need a hub with wide hub flanges speration and a stiff rim ideally. Also stiffer spokes. So there is no real weight saving.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Thanks Eric:

Regarding my riding style:
- climbing: smooth style, not much standing on the pedals.
- same goes for normal riding. I'm not the explosive guy that hammers realy hard

I had 3 broken nipples in the past on my Easton EA90 Aero wheelset, but those had a problem with broken nipples i think (spokes where too short, and many people suffered the broken nipple problem)
It isn't the purpos to use this wheelset for Paris-Roubaix, but sometimes we have a 500m cobble stone section in our parcours during club rides.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Yesterday i put 65 kms on my new Thebikehubstore clincher wheelset. what can i say...their super stiff, super responsive and fast. needless to say that i take off a pound of weight (the set weight 1395 grs without qrs). I build them with the wide front hub that is stiff like steel. next move, build a pair with the xr200 for long road pace-travels. cheers, diego.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Anders wrote:
KLabs wrote:
Hi Anders are those Reynolds Assault rims 46mm deep? What is the DS flange diameter of the Roval hub ... thanks


Yes they are 46mm. The DS flange diameter is 61mm.


Hi Anders, can you let me know the measurements you got for the hubs, I'd like to check if I've measured them correctly.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:45 pm 
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virenque wrote:
Hi Anders, can you let me know the measurements you got for the hubs, I'd like to check if I've measured them correctly.

Thanks


I also did the measurements my self as neither DT Swiss or CRC has replied on my request for official dimensions. Offset is relative to hub center.

Rear:
NDS flange diameter 21mm
DS flange diameter 61mm
NDS flange offset 43mm
DS flange offset 16.5mm

Front:
Flange diameter 27mm
Flange offset 38mm

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Wow, reading through this thread as a novice can bring about a lot of questions!

I came in here to read about various methods (and preferences) in the order of lacing and bringing spoke to tension. Now I'm pondering a different arrangement of the spoke heads.
(77-79kg power rider with a fairly smooth cadence. I can generate decent torque but I'm considerate of my wheels in poor terrain.)

More specifically speaking: I've just ordered CK R45 hubs and Archetype hoops in 20/24. Sapim Laser spokes (alloy nipples) all around except for Sapim Race on the DS. My intention is radial front lacing and 2x rear with alternating heads in/out. Should I give any thought to a different spoke arrangement? (As far as all heads in on NDS, etc)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:17 am 
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Not for those spoke counts. What you propose is the best for those drillings. I am your weight and I would run 24F/28R for durability to late now though you have bought the hub and rims.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:44 am 
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It's DS flange spacing that determines if you need to, or have room for, heads-in lacing. I think CK hubs have a relatively large DS flange spacing which would make heads-in spokes more likely to interfere with the derailleur, and less needed.

But it also depends on your riding style. My problem is standing a lot on climbs (and doing a lot of climbing- 1 million feet in my 2012 season). I rock the bike side to side more than many riders, and that puts more sideways force on the wheel. So I tend to break NDS spokes at the elbow. Widening the bracing angle by using heads-in lacing on the DS allows me to bring up the tension on the NDS and reduce or eliminate breakage. It's been working so far.

I'd do 2x normal lacing rear on those hubs. I kind of like 1x lacing on the front, but radial is fine too.

If you have broken spokes much in the past or the wheels were aimed more at the training end of the spectrum I'd suggest 24/28h. If you don't break spokes or they're more race wheels, 20/24 is fine.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Some advice on my front wheel:

I'm shortly going to order the parts and I need to check spoke lengths, but first I need to decide on lacing:

Front:
Rim: BHS C472w 20 hole
Hub: SLF85W: SuperLight Wide 20 hole
Lacing: ?
Spokes: Sapim Laser
Nips: 14mm Aluminium Sapim Polyax

I would rather not have a radial lacing. Would 1x be better for 20 spokes than 2x. Someone has made the point that with so few spokes the bracing angle would be a bit too big with 2x.

Cheers.


ps I'm still open to 24h but just thought if I'm spending £s on alu nips and lighter spokes then I may as well take advantage of dropping a bit of weight.


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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:26 pm 


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