+1

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Pfeiffer's Rennrad Camp and Cycling Coach
Independent HED Wheels/Powertap Dealer

You can always take out the price factor and just get a Dogma from some place like this:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2013-Pin ... 2783805431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It will probably won't have the same ride characteristics as the "real thing"! Then again, how do you even know that when you pay some $4k+ for the Pinarello that you aren't actually getting one of these???? Makes me wonder some times with all the new carbon frames on the market. So many of them are "designed in Italy" but may actually be made over seas to their specs and then shipped back to them and ultimately you.

Ok, don't get your panties in a bind. Not saying all carbon frames are cheap knockoffs. Not at all. Personally, I would love a Dogma but for me, all the curvy lines just don't work and I would rather drop the money on a Parlee, Burk, Cinelli, or even the Specilized. I can't believe I am saying this but I even like the late model Trek frames.

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09 Pinella w/ Record 10spd
http://1spd.blogspot.com/

I don't buy planted/solid ride feel and light weight being mutually exclusive. Look (forgive the pun!) at the 586 and 695, OK they aren't in the Cannondale Evo / BH ultralight weight category, but they feel solid underneath the rider and don't weigh in at 1200g for a size S. YMMV.

I don't disagree with that but if you make something with thicker tubes lugs (Colnago) or curves/ribs (Pinarello), heavy paints etc you easily add 100-200 grams. Colnago i.e. traditionally uses thicker carbon tubes than other manufacturers because for him this adds strength and longevity. That is just his opinion of course but I respect it.

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Wilier Cento Uno
Colnago Master X-light
Wilier 18carati

rode the R5 dura ace 58cm zipp 202s look pedals 14.7 lbs

dogma 65.1 Campy SR elec 57.5cm, zipp 202s look pedals 15.5 lbs. I dont know how much Sram Rd would save?

The dogma felt more solid, they both felt very stiff, as far as looks its not even close!

I tried it out again
57.5cm, SR EPS, carbon look pedals, toupe + saddle (155 cm 227g), demo zipp 303 firecrest, 2 bottle cages 16.04 lbs

Same here... weird unaesthetic curves in the fork and seat stays, then add to this pseudo assymetrical concept (chain stays and top tube, Think2 I believe?)... they look like fussili rigati or some sort of deformed italian pasta... the head tube has a lump on its bottom part like if too much paint was used and didn't dried in time so it dripped down a bit. To top this, one side is written Pinarello, the other Dogma. All in all a no no to me. Its all a question of preference though.

I have to say, their gemetry is nice.

Weight wise... for a 5k$ frame, you gotta be at 1000grams (actual) maximum.

Yep, too many other nice frames out there for the money in my opinion. I think the Cervelo is the last one I would buy though. I have seen too many of them roll thru my buddies shop with problems. The last one he had there he had spent a solid 2 hours trying to get the front der to shift right. Turns out the rivots that hold the braze on plate to the frame had come loose and were basically pulling out of the frame. Not cool. The frame was less than a year old.

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09 Pinella w/ Record 10spd
http://1spd.blogspot.com/

Dont have the new Think 65.1, but the Dogma 2 BoB is an interesting bike. I thought I would hate the curves and such, but at the end of the day, the aesthetics have grown on me, and I like it a lot more than I originally thought. The best way I can describe the ride quality is that of a heavy vs lightweight sports car. Not sure why Jonster's bike is so heavy, but mine with Campy SR (steel spindle), Look Blade Cro Mo, Selle Italia SLR carbon, and Lightweight gen 3/Vittoria Corsa is 6500g - 14lbs 6oz. Even with Boras, the bike would still be around 6.8kg/15lbs.

I don't think it's all about weight as I also own a Zero 7 at 5.4kg and an Impec at 6.9kg and though they ride and handle differently, I don't think it's a clear win for the Wilier. It's all personal preference.

It took him two hours to find the problem? That's a problem in itself!
Not to discount the Cervelo issue. Although I've seen riveted mounts from other brands separate, I admit I've seen it on Cervelos more than others.

The best way to buy a bike: which one makes your pants tight? Pick that one.

If you want the lightest bike possible choose the Cervelo. If you are more concerned with ride quality and handling choose the Pina. The Pina was not designed with weight as the main focus.

Pro bike at 17.1
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/arti ... a-2-36254/

I did. I bought the Dogma and it weighs just under 16lbs with Campy Super Record EPS, carbon Look blade pedals and Zipp 303s.the ride and handling of this bike is unreal!

Pics? Sounds like a really nice bike.

Cheers to that, lets see some pictures!

And did you get a frame weight by chance?